Abortions and men

[Lollypop27]

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

PinkGin but then a woman's choice may be affected by finances... and you honestly believe a woman should undergo a serious medical procedure that she doesn't want and will find possibly traumatic for the rest of her life simply because a man does not want to send some money to help raise his own child?!?
As if money and someones body equal....

Men take that risk when they have penetrative sex... they take the risk that the woman will fall pregnant and then they may have no say and may end up having to pay for the child. And that risk is minute compared to the risks that women take with their bodies in that circumstance.

God some people have really low opinions of men don't they when they think they walk around fucking anything and everything as if they can't possibly have the intelligence to realise that, even if using a condom, it could end in pregnancy?

I mean, imagine the horror of actually not having sex or even getting to know someone before having sex. Finding out their stance on these things, what they would do, see if they'd be on the same page. It's almost like we are asking too much of men when actually they're not that stupid at all!

Yeah, let's punish those evil females who won't have a medical procedure on their bodies that they don't want for not doing what a man wants by allowing and condoning his skiving out of his responsibility to the child he created . Fortunately the law doesn't take that view, even though it's all too easy for the NRP to swerve out of paying to begin with.

So do women have a choice to have sex. Works both ways. If men should abstain then so should woken if they dont want to get pregnant.

@GunpowderGelatine

"I realise when you're conditioned to believe that you are superior to half the population (not a pop at you personally but males are socialised to believe women are lesser)"

I don't know any men who believe this (but there certainly are a few women on here who do!)

"It can't be easy to hear that your opinions don't come first."

I don't expect my opinions to come first. In fact, I've actually said that, on this matter, WOMEN's opinions come first.

"...They shouldn't even register."

"Can I ask - what do you do to challenge toxic masculinity within your peers? If for example a male friend made a sexist joke or wolf whistled at a woman on the street, how would you react?"

...Assuming this is a serious question and you're not now just trying to bait me with some third-wave pseudo-feminist nonsense, I shall answer your painfully condescending question:

Example A: If it was a funny sexist joke then I may well raise a smile. As I would with ANY joke that was funny because I would understand that it was a joke.

Example B: Probably nothing, that said, I cannot remember in the last 20 years of my life that happening...I certainly wouldn't join in if that's what you're asking.

Where has it been said that men should have rights over a woman's body?

and if you dont care about that woman then you really dont deserve to have any opinion either because why the fuvk were you having penetrative sex with someone you dont care about....

everyone knows penetrative sex can sometimes lead to pregnancy even if you use every contraceptive available,

And then the flip side - why are women having sex (and risking potential pregnancy) with men that they don't respect or share the same opinion about children/pregnancy/abortion with? Respect cuts both ways surely apart from in the case of rape or abuse?

Again, I say this whilst believing that it is the woman's right to choose but I really can't see the argument for blaming the man for having sex in the first place.

If a man is married but does not want children yet do you advocate that he should refuse to have sex with his wife just in case? I'd like to see how that thread would go.

Or in the case where women post to say there husband doesn't want another baby the posts are usually 50/50 when really they should be 100% on the side of the husband shouldn't they? His right to say no.

With regards to vasectomy it always used to be that the wife had to give permission too (no idea if that still happens, it certainly did when I worked in urology) so men didn't use to have autonomy over their reproductive rights.

Women have two chances to NOT have a child 1) By not having sex 2) By having an abortion.

Majority of people on here seem to think that only ONE of those options should be available to men, but that BOTH should be open to women. That is entirely unfair.

If a woman wants to proceed to have a child a man does not want then she should bear all costs and responsibility of having ans raising that child.

If the partner had a say in whether a woman should get an abortion, we wouldn’t have my lovely niece with us today. My sister’s husband didnt just pile the pressure on her to terminate her pregnancy of 20 weeks, he even went as far as to book the appointments for her. No idea how the fuck he thought he’d get her to go to them when she had been adamant she wanted the baby, violence and coercion probably. Fortunately, she kicked the cunt to the kerb not long after she got a text on her phone saying an appointment had been booked, got a divorce and gave birth to our beautiful niece who is now 8 years old.

If we gave power or ‘rights’ to the other half of the relationship, we leave women wide open to unimaginable abuse and I have no doubt there would be countless deaths on the hands of the people that decided it was a good idea, just like in Call The Midwife last night.

@Weetabixandshreddies

Thankyou. I don't 100% agree with everything you say but really appreciate your sensible, non-hysterical approach.

Majority of people on here seem to think that only ONE of those options should be available to men, but that BOTH should be open to women. That is entirely unfair

Both are open to women because she has to carry the pregnancy

If a woman wants to proceed to have a child a man does not want then she should bear all costs and responsibility of having ans raising that child

Fortunately the law doesn’t agree.

If a man doesn’t want a baby as you say he only has one option. If he chooses to go ahead with penetrative sex he - unless he is an idiot - knows pregnancy, for which he is equally culpable could occur.

I don't know any men who believe this (but there certainly are a few women on here who do!)

Oh well it mustn't be true if men don't think it 🙄 QED! The way you speak about joining MN, as if it's almost beneath you, I think speaks volumes.

Re your reactions to toxic masculinity - I ask because men like you moan about "oh women think we are all bad abusers" etc, and seem to be greatly offended by this, yet do precisely nothing to stop bad male behaviour in its tracks. So you either think it's women over reacting (despite the earlier stats I quoted showing it's really not) or you think that simply being "one of the good guys" is enough. It isn't. If you want us to stop complaining about men, why not be part of making your sex a better class of people?

Also learn the difference between second and third wave feminism. The latter seem to find sexual harassment empowering. That is not me.

Majority of people on here seem to think that only ONE of those options should be available to men, but that BOTH should be open to women. That is entirely unfair.

That's biology, Pink. A man doesn't have the option of getting an abortion because he doesn't have a fucking uterus! Nowt to do with fairness.

If a woman wants to proceed to have a child a man does not want then she should bear all costs and responsibility of having ans raising that child.

Well, thankfully you don't make the rules.

non-hysterical approach

When you use misogynistic language, it really harms your credentials as a “decent man”.

And massive yawn at a man (did he mention he was a man) calling women "hysterical". This is the go-to phrase for men when women don't agree with them.

Thankyou. I don't 100% agree with everything you say but really appreciate your sensible, non-hysterical approach.

Hysterical? Because they don't agree with you, the Great I Am. Says it all, really.

Women have two chances to NOT have a child 1) By not having sex 2) By having an abortion.

Men have two chances to NOT have a child 1) By not having sex 2) by having sex and putting something on the end of it.

There fixed it for you.

If a man is married but does not want children yet do you advocate that he should refuse to have sex with his wife just in case? I'd like to see how that thread would go

Absolutely not: but would be sensible for them both to be aware pregnancy could occur, right?

With regards to vasectomy it always used to be that the wife had to give permission too (no idea if that still happens, it certainly did when I worked in urology) so men didn't use to have autonomy over their reproductive rights

I have no idea. However the flip side is I want a sterilisation. I was refused, the reason being “I might meet someone who wants children”.

@PBo83 it’s not my intention to dismiss anyone - I have an extremely supportive husband who was vital for me during labour. I refer mainly to those who think their opinion is paramount, and those who think it should translate into law. Which it does in many, many places all over the world. Every man who says abortion should be illegal, restricted, that men should have some kind of decision-making power, placing themselves above the woman involved, as if there’s some kind of equality involved in pregnancy and childbirth.

"Men should have a say" is too wishy-washy. Should men be allowed to have an opinion? Of course! Opinions are super-cheap. Everyone can have one! Of course if I was undecided about an abortion I'd ask the father what his opinion was.

But a decision? Being allowed to dictate what happens inside another person's body? Nope. Men can only choose whether to have sex or not. And women can choose at any point later in the process whether to continue the pregnancy or not. Subject to the usual medical process requiring 3 doctors to agree before a late-term abortion is carried out etc.

It isn't exactly "fair" in the sense that a woman can choose to abort a 5-month old foetus while a man cannot. Or a woman can choose to carry a baby through to birth even if the man does not want to be a father. But it is the best solution out of all the alternatives which involve interfering with bodily autonomy.

@PinkGin24 - I recognise your username as a dog lover. How would you like it if I had a say in a medical procedure on your dog that she didn't want or need? Would that be OK? To take the power of decision making away from you and your dog?

Ugh... did I need to read another cliche-packed flouncing post by a man whose tolerance for real discussion is about three pages?

Tick-list:

I am, in fact, the balanced, reasonable person here.
You need to re-read what I've written, because if you disagree then you've clearly misunderstood.
[Something about hysteria.]
Anyway, you hate men and we can't do anything right, so I'm going.
[Comes back when the discussion continues without him]

Always the same! And particularly disappointing in a discussion about abortion, because it underlines what many posters have said: you might claim you want input and acknowledgement, but what you really expect is the final say, and anything less will be unacceptable.

People who think this is hatred of men are idiots... this is expecting common decency from men, its knowing that men are actually capable of being decent human beings and that should be what is focused on.
I know these men exist. Men who can actually think beyond their own direct needs and wants.. who do not think the world revolves around their unassailable privilege....

I fell pregnant unexpectedly despite using two types of contraception when I was 3months into a relationship.... the first thing he said to me when we found out was 'how do you feel about this? Are you okay? What do you want me to do?'

Not 'this is what I want! This is how I feel!' Because he was a fucking decent human being who at least tries to understand and empathise with the emotional and physical impact of a pregnancy.
That yes it might be difficult and emotional for him but not as much as for the person inside whose body this is happening... who's life, physical health, and career are risked.... who has these hormones rushing through her body....
Even when I asked him how he felt about it he did the decent thing and said that that was entirely dependent on how I felt about it and that he would wholeheartedly support whatever I decided to do because he loved me.
And I will never forget that support and what it meant to me.
I did end up keeping the baby and hes 4 now and his father and I are married and also have a daughter.

I know decent men exist and I know most men are probably more than capable of behaving in an empathetic manner... but sadly even in this day and age it does not seem to be what society expects of them.

I can tell you now that if I ever heard my son had told a woman he had gotten pregnant that 'he wanted an abortion' I'd be horrified and disgusted.

I'm going to tone this down to a child's level of understand for people who stil don't get it:

If pregnancies happened outside both the parents bodies - so if they had sex and a little egg popped up in the living room that would grow into a baby - that would be grounds for equality and equal decision making, because a decision doesn't violate just one persons body or rights.

However, that's not the case, it happens in a woman's body so she gets the only say. It's not ideal, but the only other alternative is that men would get to dictate what women do with their bodies. And who wants that?

Also, men know that any sex may lead to pregnancy, and that if that was the case they wouldn't get to make the final decision on if that pregnancy results in a baby. That's a risk they all accept when having sex - that's the point where their "decision" lies. Like I have said, they could abstain, but the thought of men not getting a shag seems to really upset people!

@JacquesHammer I was laughed at by my GP when I asked about sterilisation (DH doesn't want to get the snip, the thought makes him squeamish and I respect his right to not have one)