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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Abortions and men

286 replies

Lollypop27 · 03/02/2019 22:40

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

OP posts:
Namestheyareachangin · 04/02/2019 08:41

oooooh, @musicMerchandiseWebsite. Really. It's so funny for me to meet people like you who enjoy having these debates because they think they have a watertight logical case and enjoy bouncing it off people in internet forums where by an large people are posting (a) emotionally or (b) in a hurry, so you don't get effectively countered and are enabled to go on thinking you are SO clever. When actually your argument is so full of barn-size holes you could drive a coach and horses through there.

So choice. Women do not get the choice whether or not to act as a parent to a child once it exists any more than men do. Nor, strictly speaking, is it their choice whether a child come into existence - their choice pertains entirely to their body, i.e. will they allow their body to host and gestate a foetus. That is the choice women have, up to the legally permitted limits for abortion (and indeed subsequently if they take matters into their own hands).

Men have exactly the same choice - they can choose whether to allow their bodies to engage in a process that may result in a child coming into existence. It's just a different process. Women can choose to have sex or not too, of course, as a means of avoiding the same outcome. They just have additional points along the way to a child existing to affect that outcome, because the decision remains entirely in the ambit of their body, and decisions we make within our bodies that don't affect the bodies of others are inherently sovereign and for other people to make them for us (assuming sound mind) is inherently morally wrong.

Until the child is ex utero, it does not generate financial responsibilities for anybody else, or parental responsibilities for anyone. So those are not the matters being decided by her choice. Once the child is ex utero, it exists regardless of whether anyone chooses to take responsibility for it. At which point if you have a biological connection to the child you're a bit of a pig (man or woman) if you don't see to it that it is properly cared for, either by yourself or by someone else.

The mother is choosing whether or not to allow her body to continue in a biological process, the potential consequences of which if left unchecked are a child being born and parental responsibility for her. But those are not the choices she is able to make; she is choosing whether to continue with the pregnancy. By choosing to continue with the pregnancy, the likelihood is that she will become a parent; but not inevitably. She may suffer a miscarriage; the child might be still born. She might have parental responsibility removed from her by social services if they deem her to be an unfit parent. It may seem that women have 'all the power', but actually the only choice they have is one men also have - to do something, or not, with their body that may result in a child. The difference is the point at which their body and the power they have over it stops influencing that outcome is further down the process than the man's. His options are to have sex, or not.

He can make choices around that decision to try and compromise the risk/reward of that decision - so he can have sexual activities that avoid getting sperm near the vagina, use protection, have the snip, talk to the woman he wants to have sex with to ascertain her potential attitude to abortion and the decision-making around that (although he can't hold her to this as a verbal contract in the event of a pregnancy, of course).

So it's a calculation of risk. Just as women make a calculation of risk when, in the event of a pregnancy, they decide to have an abortion or not. An abortion may remove the risks of having a child they don't want or can't afford; but it brings its own risks to physical or mental health too, which will vary depending on the stage they're at in the pregnancy and their life circumstances. So women are taking a risk having sex too. They don't have a choice to not have been pregnant once they are. Abortion is not like a delete button.

Men continue to have choices as to the extent they absolve themselves of their parental responsibilities once a child is born too. In fact the ONLY thing they can (in theory) be forced to do is pay up a nugatory percentage of their PAYE salary for the basic subsistence of their child. And that is only if they have any income (which can be proved), above a certain level so that they are not left in penury, and the mother has the time or energy to engage with CMS, to ensure they are kept aware of address changes, job changes, etc etc etc. They are then also obliged to indulge any periodic attempts the 'father' makes to get to know his children, to put up with intrusion and upset into her and her children's lives when he decides to 'get his money's worth' (actual terminology I have heard used by a CMS-paying 'father'), then gets bored and wanders off again.

Again a man has choices; he can comply with CMS or he can devote his energies to avoiding it. Plenty choose the latter which is why in this country there is a £4mil deficit in maintenance paid to children who exist - not theoretical 'do I want to have children?' children, but actual, breathing, will-go-hungry-and-naked-if-someone-doesn't-look-to-them children. And this has been the case for centuries, the state has been trying without success to make men meet their responsibilities to contribute to the care of their children for centuries. The number of mothers who just walk away from their responsibilities to their real living children is much much smaller. So I don't think men are under the cosh exactly in this situation.

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 09:02

And the woman had no part to play in this? I find this such a weird way of thinking.

Well of course she did (aside from rape) but how does that have any bearing on her choice to abort? Are we to say to women "well no abortion for you, you caused this pregnancy?". Yes we effectively say this to men, but do you know what - tough shit. We may feel like we should but we don't always have to centre men's feelings.

TaimaandRanyasBestFriend · 04/02/2019 09:08

We may feel like we should but we don't always have to centre men's feelings.

Especially when it comes to a medical procedure on one's person.

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 10:09

You can't get pregnant accidentially because you have to have sex first, and you can't do that by accident

Yeah, those pregnant rape victims were probably just asking for it were they 

Who gives a shit if you can't get pregnant by accident? Does that mean women shouldn't have abortions? Is that the line we want to toe - teach them a lesson?

BTW excellent post @Namestheyareachangin

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 10:09

You can't get pregnant accidentially because you have to have sex first, and you can't do that by accident

Yeah, those pregnant rape victims were probably just asking for it were they 

Who gives a shit if you can't get pregnant by accident? Does that mean women shouldn't have abortions? Is that the line we want to toe - teach them a lesson?

BTW excellent post @Namestheyareachangin

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 10:10

Oops double post! Blush

OutPinked · 04/02/2019 10:14

Men rightfully have no autonomy over female reproduction in a civilised country such as the UK therefore they have absolutely no say.

They can voice their opinions and can even have nothing to do with the child if they so choose but they can’t force a woman to abort. Their choice ends when they choose to ejaculate inside of a female imo.

That also works the other way around, if the female wants to terminate but male doesn’t. He can’t force her to go through a nine month pregnancy, Labour and then raise a child she never wanted. It’s different in reverse because the man doesn’t have to experience pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding etc etc and they can just walk away from the child if they wish.

JoanneMumsnet · 04/02/2019 10:33

Hi, thanks for the reports about this thread.

As you can see, we've deleted a number of inflammatory messages that were posted by a previously banned troll.

Racecardriver · 04/02/2019 10:41

I think that a good woman would take into consideration the fathers feelings and be sensitive to them (realising that abortions can be upsetting for men too and that he has every right to feel sad if he does) but it’s not as simple as a man wanting the child and the woman giving up parental rights on birth because she doesn’t want one. The child is only one consequence of pregnancy for the woman. Asking a woman to go through pregnancy and labour because you want a child is asking too much. But asking a woman to respect that you also have feelings on the matter is perfectly reasonable.

Puggles123 · 04/02/2019 10:46

Probably an unpopular opinion but...

I think it’s both the most straightforward and the most complex issue. Obviously the woman needs the final say as it is her body carrying the child, but the fact that men could be left with no say at all (until the child is born in which case it goes from no right to have an input to the baby is half yours you need to step up...) is scary. Obviously there are many instances where this is more than fair, but if you are a man who has been in a relationship for a number of years, decide with your partner that you are both ready to start a family, woman falls pregnant and changes her mind (which absolutely she has every right to); is it surprising that the man has the right to be upset that he has no say that his child is being aborted? Not every man is going around having unprotected sex, and what if the woman says she is on the pill but isn’t, or if the condom splits- should he never have sex just in case?

I’m not saying things should change at all, and it is absolutely right that the woman had the choice as it is her body, but I don’t think every situation is as black and white and men don’t sometimes deserve empathy.

TheSerenDipitY · 04/02/2019 11:00

it is the womans choice,
everytime,
any time,
her choice alone,
men may want an opinion but until all genetic men start producing babies and are faced with being forced to give birth or denied termination, or forced to terminate against their will, then they dont get a say in it... not a one
A woman should be allowed to be in charge of her own body at all times, its her body, no one elses!!!

DareIAdmit · 04/02/2019 11:29

Anecdotally I've heard of more women who have been asked what their husband thinks of them getting sterilised than I do men who have been asked what their wife thinks of them getting a vasectomy. Funny how it's always men trying to decide for women.

LuYu · 04/02/2019 11:31

But the problem is that the final question is always black and white, no matter what the context is. Is the woman going to continue with this pregnancy? It's yes or no. There's no middle ground.

So when we talk about having empathy and respect for the man's feelings, what does this actually mean in practice? The woman says I don't want to have this baby, and the man says I do: should there be a certain amount of negotiation after that? How much is too much? How do we distinguish between discussion and emotional blackmail or pressure? How long can the question be debated, when every day the pregnancy advances and the options for terminating it changes? How many times does the woman have to say she doesn't want to continue the pregnancy before that's accepted? Are there a certain amount of reasons and justifications she must give? How often and in what way should the man express his sadness to the woman: can he shout, weep, threaten to leave her?

I hate how hardline it sounds, saying it's just not the man's choice at all. I want to say that in a functional relationship, yes, there would be a conversation, and I would empathise with any man who felt the wrong choice was being made and that he had no control... I believe all that in theory, but unfortunately I think the reality is different, and that it's a very slippery slope down to a complete lack of respect for women's choices, and a denial about the real impact of pregnancy and childbirth.

If men finding themselves in this situation (a pregnancy he wants to continue is being aborted, or a pregnancy is continued against his wishes) was a widespread social issue, causing a lot of distress, there would have been much more enthusiasm for effective hormonal male contraception, so that men could at least feel secure in taking maximum control of their fertility. But there isn't, and I doubt there ever will be. The social issue I see is of women being denied reproductive autonomy, whether through forced birth, forced abortion, lack of access to contraception and tolerance of sexual violence. I don't think there's a single country in the world where women don't or didn't ever have to deal with this, and that makes me a lot more inclined to be hardline about it being absolutely a woman's choice, no matter how harsh it sounds.

PBo83 · 04/02/2019 11:40

AIBU to find the over use of terms like "medical procedure" incredibly callous when we're talking about abortion?

I understand a lot of the arguments here but I must admit to finding they complete lack of understanding from a male standpoint quite depressing.

Pregnancy should always be a joint decision (I appreciate that it can be unexpected in which case that's where communication comes in). The idea that, if my wife unexpectedly (and virtually impossibly) fell pregnant, would be able to carry our child for 'x' amount of weeks and then terminate it without my input doesn't sit very well. This is, of course, a hypothetical example, we have no plans for further children and have taken steps as such.

I understand the physical and emotional stress of carrying a child (of course I can/will never understand fully as I'll never experience it). However, I feel a lot of the attitudes here are incredibly callous.

Speaking as a man who lost a child during pregnancy, I have experienced my (now ex) partner's trauma first hand and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. However, consider that, that is also the MAN's unborn son or daughter and now consider the trauma HE would experience if the decision was made to terminate against his well (in my example, sadly, it wasn't a choice and I now don't, and never will, have biological children on my own [SD of one]).

I'm not calling for change, just understanding.

*As a footnote, I think we all agree on the lack of male input in instances of rape. Let's not use this example as leverage for an agenda as it will, thankfully, always be the minority of cases.

JacquesHammer · 04/02/2019 11:43

Woman's choice. Each and every time.

LuYu · 04/02/2019 11:47

PBo83 so how would you resolve the situation if a woman was pregnant and unequivocably wanted to terminate, and you wanted the pregnancy to continue?

What would you say? How long would you discuss it? How would you break the deadlock of yes versus no?

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 11:53

Why can't we accept that women have full autonomy over their bodies (and therefore get to make the ultimate decision) whilst accepting that for some men that will be a difficult decision to accept and recognise their pain too?

00100001 · 04/02/2019 11:56

Just turn it round to him and ask him his opinion about whether a woman should decide if man should have a circumcision, or the snip...

Ask him, ultimately who's decision would it be?

He will say it's the man's decision - and the many may take into account the woman's feelings, but it will be down to the man.

Same for say.. plastic surgery.... or whether to amuptate a body part....

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 11:56

@PBo83 I know what you mean re the "medical procedure language" - because obviously terminations carry more emotion than say, having your appendix out. But when there's so many conflicting emotions I think we need to remember that terminations are a medical procedure, and no one should dictate someone else having one against their well. Even people who are incapable of making their own medical decisions have a trusted person speaking on their behalf, not (or hopefully not) someone with their own agenda demanding they have procedures they would not want.

I do sympathise with men who want a baby, think they have the opportunity but the decision is taken out of their hands. That can't be nice. But what's more important, by far and large, is the feelings and wishes of the person carrying that baby. It should only EVER be a woman's decision. We can say this and still have sympathy for men.

JacquesHammer · 04/02/2019 11:59

whilst accepting that for some men that will be a difficult decision to accept and recognise their pain too?

I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

But the wishes of the person who is carrying the baby is far, FAR more important and would always outweigh any man's opinion.

SleepingStandingUp · 04/02/2019 12:01

If I got pregnant within the confines of a relationship I would CONSIDER my partners feelings. But he can't have a decisive say.

If I man can make a choice it means either forcing a medical procedure on a woman against her will, or risk her resolving the pregnancy in a much more dangerous way where her life will be risked..

Just no

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 12:04

I know a lot of people struggle with the concept of a woman terminating a baby that the father wanted. But what if she wants it and he doesn't - and by that I mean he's not happy to have a baby then absolve responsibility, he doesn't want a baby to exist at all - do you think he also has a right to force an abortion?

FishCanFly · 04/02/2019 12:06

I recently had a conversation with a religious male pro-lifer. I got him to admit that if men could get pregnant, abortions would be 24/7

cannemc · 04/02/2019 12:08

No imo and men grossly over inflate their role and contribution to and in pregnancy and childbirth. Of course in an ideal world both people would have a good chat and reach a mutual agreement but we don’t live in an ideal world. There’s only one person who should make the ultimate decision.

PBo83 · 04/02/2019 12:09

@LuYu - I didn't say that I was campaigning for change or denying women the final decision.

My issue was purely with the idea that, as perpetuated by a depressing number of posters, 'men's opinions don't matter' (not paraphrased in many instances). I'm not saying they should take precedence or that men should have the final say, just that I was upset by how dismissive so may posters have been about their emotional attachment to an unborn child (speaking from experience).

Just to reiterate, I DON'T think that the man should make the decision, I was just a bit distressed by a lack of understanding that taking this, often near-impossible decision, does have two parties emotionally involved.

@Weetabixandshreddies "Why can't we accept that women have full autonomy over their bodies (and therefore get to make the ultimate decision) whilst accepting that for some men that will be a difficult decision to accept and recognise their pain too?"

Spot on.