Abortions and men

[Lollypop27]

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

Why do so many men think like this? They can only see the tiny part of the picture that puts them at a disadvantage. They can't see the huge advantages being a man gives them over a woman at this time:
no risk of dying or sustaining life changing injuries in childbirth, much less likely to end up a single parent, less chance of getting pushed out of their job because they are having a child, much less likely to be pushed into poverty when their partner leaves them with no financial support.

But the real reason the man can't have a decision is that there is no abortion on demand, it is on medical grounds, usually that the harm to a woman's mental health is worse to have a child they don't want than not.

coucho my friend had a late term abortion with a very wanted baby. She was 27 weeks.
Her baby’s brain had developed outside its head and the skull was deformed. The drs wanted to see if there was a way to surgically help but unfortunately it was decided that baby would probably die within minutes of birth if it survived the birth at all.
Women don’t have late abortions for fun and it’s very unlikely that someone would get to six months pregnant and then decide they have changed their mind.

Why do so many men think like this?

Because they've been conditioned all their lives to believe that they are the most important people in everything, even things that only happen to women. They're probably shocked and a bit offended that no one is centring their feelings, they're not used to that. I have to say, to look at a woman, and either force her to carry, labour and birth a child she doesn't want, or have a termination she doesn't want - all because of HIS opinion on the matter - is one of the most dehumanising things I've ever heard. So many men don't see women as humans with feelings, mere genitals on a stick to be used at men's convenience.

@musicmerchandisewebsite

I think that if a man doesn't have the right to decide whether a woman has a baby

He is able to decide simply by not having sex with a woman. Beyond that point, if the woman becomes pregnant, he does not have a choice and is responsible for creating that child.

I think that if a man doesn't have the right to decide whether a woman has a baby, he should certainly have the right to opt out of parenthood up to a certain age of gestation

He does decide. When he has sex. Even protected sex runs a small change of pregnancy, men know this. They also know they have no say on what happens to that pregnancy.

But let's look at your solution anyway: what about a married couple who decide together to try for a baby, then he buggers off mid way through the pregnancy (happens a lot, just take a look at the relationships board). Does he get to "opt out" of parenthood?? And what about all the children who, without the financial support of a father, would live in poverty? Or never get to know their father because legally they don't have one? You think that men's right to shirk their responsibilities is more important than a child's right to a good life?

Men already owe their child £4billion in maintenance in the UK. Let's not encourage them any further shall we

I think that, if the male point of opting out should be at a stage where the woman can then make a choice to opt out of parenthood too. She can make a choice about her life with all pertinent facts

Even when they planned a baby together? So women just have to suck it up and have a traumatic and unpleasant termination they don't want because their OH suddenly can't be arsed being a dad?

Absolve rather than shirk. You're using quite emotive language that's just slightly out of kilter with the discussion.

Ok then I'll reframe the question:

You think that men's right to absolve their responsibilities is more important than a child's right to a good life?

Do you think that a woman's right to shirk their responsibilities is more important than a child's right to life?

Well your point is moot, because there is no "responsibility" to speak of when a baby hasn't been born. But if what you mean is do I think their right to body autonomy and a child free life trumps the foetuses right to be born - yes I absolutely do

You mention money several times? Have you been shirked? Do you think this has coloured your views? Do you think of men as little more than a wallet?

Ugh I hate when people express an opinion someone doesn't agree with is MUST be because they have an axe to grind 🙄 no I'm happily married and we have 2 children. This is what I believe, view uncoloured. Have you shirked your responsibilities though?? I get the feeling you have.

And yes I mentioned money because I assume when you say "men should have the right to absolve responsibilities" I assume that means financially too? And it's rather laughable that you paint men as these poor loves who are seen as "little more than a wallet" when they owe £4billion to their children in the UK alone, which I mentioned earlier. Do you not think men should pay for the upbringing of their offspring?

I'm pro-choice

Oh, my dear, you really aren't.

No, of course a man can’t decide what happens to a woman’s body. I’d hope that both people would have a conversation about it but the decision is hers. That said, DH has a male friend whose long-term partner terminated a pregnancy and it totally deveststed him. That doesn’t mean she should have kept the baby against her will, but I do have empathy for his feelings (and hers for that matter - it’s just a sad situation all round really).

I think that the male can decide to discuss his feelings on abortion before he has sex with a woman. And if they don't agree on what would happen if a pregnancy occured accidentally then he has the right to decide not to sleep with her.

Beyond that I think it's reasonable for him to voice an opinion. That's as far as it can go really. It's up to woman to decide whether or not she wants to take his opinion into consideration. If he doesn't like her choice then maybe he shouldn't have slept with her in the first place?

@musicMerchandiseWebsite but men DO have a choice. They can choose to abstain. It's the only 100% guaranteed way to not impregnate someone. I know the thought of some men not getting their dick wet is horrifying to some but if he's so anti-children he'd sign up for pretending his don't exist, then maybe this is the best solution? Otherwise, his right to pretend the pregnancy never happened is NOT more important than a blameless child, their welfare and their upbringing. A mother gets to choose simply because it's her body. It's not an even keel between the sexes nor should it be.

Out of interest what does "informally" paying for/seeing a child look like? I hope he pays maintenance directly to his ex?

Definitely a womans choice!!

The only choice men should have is whether they should pay cms depending on whether they wanted an abortion or not. Thinking of one night stands that have gone wrong or didn't want to be forced to become a father.. Just as women get to choose to be mothers iyswim

Easy solution, don't go around getting women pregnant unless you have the same veiw on what happens to the baby.

@musicMerchandiseWebsite sex has natural consequences for women. They may be able to opt out of parenthood (as you so charmingly put it), but not consequence-free. They have to undergo a medical procedure that is by all accounts not a whole lot of fun, whether medical or surgical. Once women are pregnant, even if they elect to terminate, their lives are at risk, either from the pregnancy and birth or (albeit the risk is much smaller) from termination. Why should women risk their lives every time they have sex while men risk nothing? Your idea of men opting out of parenthood may be equal, but it sure as shit isn't equitable.

@musicMerchandiseWebsite Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, not out of retribution, but because men, like women, need to understand that sex is serious business. Sure it's fun and it feels good, but it canand doeschange lives. If you divorce sex from the risk completely for men, where is their incentive to take any kind of precaution?

I have a lot of sympathy for men who don’t want a pregnancy terminated when the mother does, but I don’t think they should have any say. Nobody should be able to make a woman go through with pregnancy and birth if she doesn’t want to. It’s a tough situation but bodily autonomy for women has to be the priority.

The only choice men should have is whether they should pay cms depending on whether they wanted an abortion or not. Thinking of one night stands that have gone wrong or didn't want to be forced to become a father.. Just as women get to choose to be mothers iyswim

Totally disagree with this. Imagine how many women could be financially pressured into terminations they didn’t want because the father could say he wouldn’t pay CM if she had the baby?

Men take on the risk of pregnancy when they have sex. If a child results from that, they are responsible for CM. No loopholes.

@musicMerchandiseWebsite er, no, not religiously informed at all. Born and raised atheist. I just think men need to step up, consider their sexual choices, and live with the consequences whatever they may be if they fail to do so or it all goes wrongjust as women do. FWIW, I am pro-choice for both women and men, it's just that men's choices end when they put their dicks in their partners. That's just biology, I'm afraidjust as women bearing the physical risk of childbirth is biology. If men don't like it being biology, they are welcome to campaign for long acting and effective birth control for themselves.

@musicMerchandiseWebsite I'm not the one advocating for men to be able to act irresponsibly. And you know what, it turns out that men's reversible birth control really isn't that complex, but they didn't like the side effects, which are basically identical to those women experience www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/03/500549503/male-birth-control-study-killed-after-men-complain-about-side-effects. So...it's ok for women to have all the negative consequences of birth control, and all the risks if it fails, and you are advocating for men to be able to opt out of the ONE possible consequence or disadvantage they have? And you think I'M weird or antifeminist?

Also, re language: any man who WOULD opt out of parenthood knowing he had impregnated someone doesn't deserve respect, but nice piece of tone policing there. I'm not trying to be hip or cool, I just don't give a shiny shit what such a manor his supportersthink of the way I talk.