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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Abortions and men

286 replies

Lollypop27 · 03/02/2019 22:40

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

OP posts:
Vizwali · 04/02/2019 12:11

Hi all, I don't know if this is an appropriate place to talk I am currently pregnant with my 3rd child my partners 5th, I have no one I can speak to this is totally unplanned and I never thought I could cope with the idea let alone the reality of another child. My partner point blank doesn't want the pregnancy to continue, prior to being pregnant I was adamant no more babies!!! But I've grown attatched to the baby +the idea and I don't know what to do, keep baby and destroy my relationship with my partner of 8years or terminate and hurt me instead. I'm sorry if this is totally inappropriate for me to post this, I can't talk to anyone about it, I cant ask for feedback from ppl on social media as I don't want ppl to know as it's really upsetting me. I just need someone to answer me please with some sort of advice ☹x Thanks for listening

HoustonBess · 04/02/2019 12:12

Funny how men never seem to be jumping up and down demanding a male long-lasting contraceptive so they wouldn't be faced with unwanted pregnancies.

Men get to say they'll support the woman or not, which might be enough to nudge her towards or away from abortion.

They don't get to make choices about what happens to someone else's body.

PBo83 · 04/02/2019 12:14

@FishCanFly "I recently had a conversation with a religious male pro-lifer. I got him to admit that if men could get pregnant, abortions would be 24/7"

...No you didn't

@cannemc "No imo and men grossly over inflate their role and contribution to and in pregnancy and childbirth."

I don't think men do. As I man, I appreciate my physical role in pregnancy is very minor (as it is throughout the pregnancy and childbirth). I do, however, believe that your comments massively dismiss the support that a (decent) man can offer during this time, his emotional commitment to his unborn child and the many many years of parental involvement.

@Gunpowdergelatine - Absolutely not, no man should be able to force a woman to have a termination.

JacquesHammer · 04/02/2019 12:16

I do, however, believe that your comments massively dismiss the support that a (decent) man can offer during this time, his emotional commitment to his unborn child and the many many years of parental involvement

And how easily they can decide that they've changed their mind...

TeaStory · 04/02/2019 12:19

No-one is saying that a man shouldn’t be upset about a termination or an unwanted pregnancy. But men’s feelings cannot dictate what women do with their bodies. The trouble is, there are too many entitled men out there who think that “taking their feelings into account” is the same as “doing what they say”. How many of us have been accused of ‘not giving a shit’ about our partners by entitled men because we made a different decision to the one they wanted? So many people don’t understand that we can care very much what they think, but still make a choice they don’t like.

Idonotsetanalarmformyteen · 04/02/2019 12:19

Bodily autonomy trumps everything else. Forced abortion and forced pregnancy/birth can never be acceptable. While women make and carry babies, they get to decide what happens to their bodies

This.

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 12:25

@Vizwali Thanks I think you're best to start a new post if you want advice.

My advice is simply - it is your choice. If you terminate a baby you want, for your man, your relationship won't stand a chance anyway. I hope you're ok x

PBo83 · 04/02/2019 12:25

"And how easily they can decide that they've changed their mind..."

I don't think we can dismiss men's opinions entirely because there are SOME men who are bad/absentee fathers. You can't argue that the opinions/feelings of 50% of the population are less value because of a small number of irresponsible men.

This is like saying "No man should ever pay child support because women just get pregnant for the benefits and don't want the man involved". That's a preposterous statement but WILL be true in a very small number of cases (I could quote anecdotal evidence but it's not really important).

Just because a seemingly large proportion of posters on here have had bad experiences with absentee/lazy/just-plain-bad father's shouldn't deny the rest of us a voice

Once again, I am NOT saying anything should change regards the original topic or that men should have final say regards termination.

I am speaking as a man who lost his one biological baby and is now a involved and supported stepfather of a 12yo girl (and have been for the last 7 years). I DO believe I have a right to an opinion but also believe you have a right to oppose it.

NannyRed · 04/02/2019 12:26

It doesn’t matter what anyone else’s views on abortion are, the only person who’s opinions matter is the woman who is pregnant.

I’m pro choice, but if someone decides against all medical advice to continue her pregnancy, that’s her choice and only her choice.

Is your husband suggesting a woman who is risking her own life (should she continue her pregnancy) be forced by her husband to terminate because the father doesn’t want to be widowed?

Pregnancy, whether they are planned or not, going ahead or not, are all the woman’s decisions.

PBo83 · 04/02/2019 12:27

*supportive, not supported (although, I am that too thanks to my lovely wife!)

Ribbonsonabox · 04/02/2019 12:28

Mens feelings do not outweigh womens bodily autonomy.... and imo any man worth his salt will not attempt to pressure a woman either way even by initially stating his opinion (unless directly asked) because even if you are in a long term relationship or married you do not own your partners body, you do not have a right to influence what your partner does with their body. Yes it's sad if you want a baby but the woman does not but what's more sad is putting any type of emotional pressure on a person wom you claim to love or at least cared about enough to sleep with, to get them to essentially hand use of their body over to your desire for the child.... and if you dont care about that woman then you really dont deserve to have any opinion either because why the fuvk were you having penetrative sex with someone you dont care about.... everyone knows penetrative sex can sometimes lead to pregnancy even if you use every contraceptive available, even if you dont actually ejaculate... maybe men should have a think about putting their dicks in women they couldn't care less about.... and maybe if they are sleeping with someone they do care about a good expression of that care would be to respect that persons absolute bodily autonomy..

I'm just writing that view as an antidote to all the lines about 'a GOOD woman would consider her partners feelings, a NICE woman would not want to put her man through pain'
Age old narrative isnt it.... but what about GOOD NICE men hey? What about demanding respect for your bodily autonomy? The bar is set so low it depresses me. 'Awww he just cares about the ickle baby!' At the expense of his partners personhood... fucking grim.

CaMePlaitPas · 04/02/2019 12:29

@Namestheyareachangin I want to shake your hand.

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 12:29

No imo and men grossly over inflate their role and contribution to and in pregnancy and childbirth

I agree. I used to work for the NHS until very recently, and in the labour ward you won't believe the amount of men who think they are as important as the women (aka the patient) and how many think their role of delivering the baby is equal.
And like Jacques said, it is so ridiculously easy for men to bugger off and change their mind. Happens more than you'd know. If we were to have a situation where women were forced to carry and birth a child she would have otherwise aborted, purely for the father's sake, then he would legally need to be held to a high standard to ensure he stuck to his word. How would we do that? Criminal charges for changing their mind? Passport being taken off them? Their word wouldn't nearly be enough when there's an otherwise abandoned newborn at stake

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 12:31

I don't think we can dismiss men's opinions entirely because there are SOME men who are bad/absentee fathers. You can't argue that the opinions/feelings of 50% of the population are less value because of a small number of irresponsible men

In the UK men owe their children around £4billion in unpaid child maintenance. That's not a small number. That's huge. How are we meant to trust that they won't do a midnight flit when, as a class, they display this level of abandonment?

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 12:34

I'm just writing that view as an antidote to all the lines about 'a GOOD woman would consider her partners feelings, a NICE woman would not want to put her man through pain'
Age old narrative isnt it.... but what about GOOD NICE men hey? What about demanding respect for your bodily autonomy? The bar is set so low it depresses me. 'Awww he just cares about the ickle baby!' At the expense of his partners personhood... fucking grim

👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼

Brava!

Yes these 'nice men' who 'just want to be a good daddy' - let's hope they don't have girls seeing as they don't see women as humans when they believe they should have the right to force her to have a baby.

MaiaRindell · 04/02/2019 12:37

It is up to no one but the woman involved.

PBo83 · 04/02/2019 12:38

@GunpowderGelatine - I'm not defending that. I'd also like to know the amount spent each year by stepfather's in supporting their families. The very fact that, as a man, I'm signed up to Mumsnet in the first place shows that some of us do care and actually seek out how to best do an unnatural job for us.

Unfortunately, whilst I try to put forward a very balanced opinion (please actually read it, I'm not denying that women should have the ultimate decision and have shown plenty of empathy/sympathy [can never remember the right one!] for those who have to make these decisions) there seems to be a real hatred for men on this forum.

Not just in this thread but there seems to be an assumption that all men are absentees/abusive/rapists and, if they're not, are likely to mutate into one at any given moment!

I'll probably stay a member as, like I say, MN has, sometimes, helped me understand a role that I didn't naturally fit into but I'm not sure I'll offer my opinion again as it's clearly unwanted/invalid.

PinkGin24 · 04/02/2019 12:41

Of course the man should have a say!! It isn't only the woman who is impacfed by having a child.

Personally I think the current maintenance laws are entirely unfair - making a man pay for a child which he might happily have agreed to terminate.

Of course a woman should be able to choose but if the man doesn't want the child (and woman goes ahead anyway) then he should have no legal obligaton to contribute financially.

Woman not a man saying this by the way.

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 12:47

@PBo83 I think it's unlikely there'd be any studies around what stepfathers (or indeed stepmothers) spend but surely if you're living with someone a half decent person wouldn't be a twat about money? "Well the potatoes are £1, but there's one of me and 3 of you so if I pay 25p you pay 75p". If you're going to be like that then step parenting isn't for you!

I realise when you're conditioned to believe that you are superior to half the population (not a pop at you personally but males are socialised to believe women are lesser) it can't be easy to hear that your opinions don't come first. But in this instance, they really don't. They shouldn't even register. No one says you can't be upset about a woman aborting your baby though.

And the NAMALT argument is very problematic- enough men abandon their children, rape women, beat women etc, it's not anecdata that is statistically correct (1 in 10 women raped, 1 in 4 victims of DV, etc, it's not just one bloke running round doing all this). Are we are sick of being told we can't talk about it. Sick of being silenced because it upsets the "nice" men. Just look at the relationships board to find out what so many (too many) men are like.

Can I ask - what do you do to challenge toxic masculinity within your peers? If for example a male friend made a sexist joke or wolf whistled at a woman on the street, how would you react?

LuYu · 04/02/2019 12:47

Just to reiterate, I DON'T think that the man should make the decision, I was just a bit distressed by a lack of understanding that taking this, often near-impossible decision, does have two parties emotionally involved.

There isn't a lack of understanding that two parties are emotionally involved. There's been plenty of acknowledgment that each individual circumstance of this type has involved distress for the man. But I didn't ask you if you thought the man should be able to 'make the decision'; I asked how exactly you envisage him influencing the decision if he wants the pregnancy to continue and his partner doesn't.

And for some people it may seem like a 'near-impossible decision', but for many women it isn't. I'm not talking about someone who has some apprehensions about continuing a pregnancy and needs to discuss it with her partner and gauge his support. I'm talking about someone who doesn't want it to continue. She says no. You say yes. Where does it go from there?

Saying it should be a joint choice, that everyone's feelings should be respected etc etc is nice but just woolly. There is either going to be a continued pregnancy, or an abortion. I think it's important to be very clear about this, because I find that many men who are vocal about a male's right to make a joint decision about pregnancy outcomes are genuinely unable to comprehend a situation where their needs and wishes aren't centred, or they're confident that the woman has just made a mistake which they can correct (ie she says she doesn't want the pregnancy but actually she does, and he'll explain this). They can also be very unrealistic about the physical and emotional realities of pregnancy and childbirth.

I'm not saying this about you in particular, BTW; just that it's a common theme in discussions. Again, I agree that the nice, 'good' thing to say is that everyone should be party to the decision, but I think that glosses over the realities of the situation. I understand that men who are saddened or angered by their lack of control want those feelings to be recognised, but I don't understand what you mean in practical terms by this; what it would involve in your actual relationship, and what it's supposed to signify in a discussion about abortion access.

Again, I know you say you don't expect to make the final decision, but what do you expect? Is a woman saying 'I'm sorry, I know you want this pregnancy, but I really don't, so I'm having a termination' enough?

I am just wary that when men (not all men! not necessarily you!) claim they don't expect the final decision to be theirs, but that they expect their input to be recognized, what they truly expect is that their input will result in their choice happening, and that there's no tolerance for any other outcome.

whatsthepointthen · 04/02/2019 12:49

I do kind of agree that I think men should be able to walk away from an unwanted pregnancy without having any responsibility. If it was a one night stand (for example) women get a choice so I think men should be able to aswell.

TaimaandRanyasBestFriend · 04/02/2019 12:50

Funny how men never seem to be jumping up and down demanding a male long-lasting contraceptive so they wouldn't be faced with unwanted pregnancies.

This. Last trial binned because men got side effects.

JacquesHammer · 04/02/2019 12:51

I'd also like to know the amount spent each year by stepfather's in supporting their families

That’s totally irrelevant. Although I suspect you’re using it as a marker of being “a decent man”.

Of course a woman should be able to choose but if the man doesn't want the child (and woman goes ahead anyway) then he should have no legal obligaton to contribute financially

Every time you have sex you are acknowledging that a pregnancy could occur. Don’t want a child, don’t have sex.

JacquesHammer · 04/02/2019 12:52

women get a choice so I think men should be able to aswell

They had a choice. To have sex. Pregnancy could occur.

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 12:52

@PinkGin24 so you're happy for even more children to live in poverty because an irresponsible man's wallet is more important?

What about if it was a married couple who planned their baby, but 13 weeks into the pregnancy, he decides it's not for him? Should he, having made the choice to conceive, be able to absolve financial responsibility? If so how would that work on a practical level? Would couple TTC need to sign a form and lodge it with their solicitor to show the intent of having a baby?

Sounds an awful lot of work - how about we just keep it as it is and get men to face their responsibilities?

Personally I think the current maintenance laws are entirely unfair

I 100% agree. £4billion owed to children by men. Self employed men using clever tricks to claim they earn nothing therefore don't have to pay a penny. Men quitting their jobs once their exes Male a claim, so they don't have to pay a penny. Incredibly unfair and the CMS needs a massive overhaul