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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to request a positive thread on Brexit?

703 replies

mobyduck · 28/01/2019 11:38

Everyone here (nearly) says it will be bad.
Let's hear some positives about our coming freedom from the EU!

OP posts:
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FizzGivesYouWhizz · 31/01/2019 10:10

I can see that freedom of movement has enabled employers to push wages right down
No, the UK government has enabled employers to do this.

Well, the UK government (both the Tory and the Blair/Brown governments) have colluded with business to allow them access to a vast pool of cheap labour from Europe, thereby keeping wages low and allowing working conditions to deteriorate here.

I think if you are comfortably off its easy to forget how things are for the poor and unskilled. Having spent some time at the sharp end in the last few years it has opened my eyes to the harsh reality behind the so-called 'jobs boom'. This is the reason why left-wingers such as Corbyn are Brexiteers, because the EU has not benefited the working class as much as it does big business.

Furthermore, if anyone thinks the EU is a bastion of 'rights' and 'liberty' they should look at their treatment of Greece.

Deadbudgie · 31/01/2019 10:11

Of course there are long term positives of not being in the EU. The negatives everyone talks about are often tied to the short term issues of exiting the EU rather than actually bring out of the EU.

Both being in the EU and out of the EU are largely uncertain futures.

If we look at the history of the UK any time of big, Economic, social or political change has led to winners and losers. Each time it must have been unsettling but usually a matter of relatively short periods life has gone back to a state of equilibrium.

Legally, politically and culturally we are very different to many of our European neighbours, quite frankly our marriage to the EU was a marriage based on trying to heal division and for economic reasons. But like many marriages we’ve grown apart, we had very little in common in the first place. And we are both heading in very different directions.

Yes a divorce is painful but once done we will be able to live life without the confines of being something we’re not.

Clavinova · 31/01/2019 10:12

I'm actually assuming Chile and Israel (hmm) are free trade?

Yes - free trade.

Readytorewind · 31/01/2019 10:16

Free trade, no tarrifs?

Anyone else apart from Chile and Israel Clav? Someone mentioned Australia? I think I heard that India were open to accomodating an agreement too?

Mistigri · 31/01/2019 10:17

These are roll overs of deals we already have.

Despite an existing trade agreement U.K. trade with Chile is minuscule.

Mistigri · 31/01/2019 10:19

Free trade, no tarrifs?

It's just a roll over of the existing EU deal so no not completely free trade, obviously.

MzHz · 31/01/2019 10:26

Furthermore, if anyone thinks the EU is a bastion of 'rights' and 'liberty' they should look at their treatment of Greece.

Erm... Greece chose to lie and blag its way in, then mismanage its economy. What happened to the Greek people is down to the Greek Govt entirely, and a lot of the mess Greece is in is due to corruption and tax evasion.

Clavinova · 31/01/2019 10:26

Someone mentioned Australia?

Yes - Australia and New Zealand as well.

We have an agreement with Switzerland;
www.thelocal.ch/20181217/switzerland-signs-off-on-post-brexit-trade-agreement-with-uk

  • but Switzerland have some sort of on-going problem with the EU themselves which might delay things.
OftenHangry · 31/01/2019 10:27

Re the low wages thanks to free movement.
That's why people can afford their lunch sandwiches... Do you think sandwich will be £2 if the factory workers get £11 an hour? Nope.

It's customers driving the wages down.
"Like I want this main course with the bio vegetables but I am like paIt's customers driving the wages down. ying a fiver and no more cause that would be too expensive imho"
And
"Fillet of fresh fish with seasonal vegetables for a tenner? No way! Too much"
"Locally roasted quality Americano for more than £2? That's too expensive."

Everyone who argues for better wages should be happy to fork out more for things. Or shut it.

Buteo · 31/01/2019 10:40

Yes - Australia and New Zealand as well.

Not FTAs though. Both the Australia and New Zealand agreements are on mutual recognition, plus a deal on Australian wine imports (haven’t seen one on New Zealand wine?).

Readytorewind · 31/01/2019 10:50

So;

Chile
Israel (I am really worried about this one(
Australia
NZ
Switzerland (tricky but pencilled in)
India (query)

AntheaGreenfern · 31/01/2019 10:52

Longer term authorities will no longer be able to blame EU regulations and thus evade responsibility.

FizzGivesYouWhizz · 31/01/2019 10:53

Everyone who argues for better wages should be happy to fork out more for things. Or shut it.

Quite true. If people are better paid then things will cost more. We demand cheap things, same day delivery etc without thinking of the social cost for those who work to provide these things and then can't live on their wages or have a decent family life because of the unsocial hours they have to work. It depends on what kind of society we want to live in. I'm just saying that access to infinite cheap labour has been a boon for large corporations who don't care about the welfare of their employees at all.

FizzGivesYouWhizz · 31/01/2019 11:12

Erm... Greece chose to lie and blag its way in, then mismanage its economy. What happened to the Greek people is down to the Greek Govt entirely, and a lot of the mess Greece is in is due to corruption and tax evasion.

Easy to hold the Greeks alone responsible, but it's much more complicated than that. www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2012/may/18/who-blame-greece-crisis

Clavinova · 31/01/2019 11:23

Israel (I am really worried about this one)

It doesn't seem to worry the rest of the EU;

EU-Israel trade thriving, despite the politics. Business is business after all. The EU is Israel's main trading partner, accounting for one-third of its total trade.

www.dw.com/en/eu-israel-trade-thriving-despite-the-politics/a-43448849

Buteo · 31/01/2019 11:25

I’m sure Israel will be just as good a market as Saudi for UK arms manufacturers.

Figmentofmyimagination · 31/01/2019 11:27

I'm just saying that access to infinite cheap labour has been a boon for large corporations who don't care about the welfare of their employees at all.

You need to look at the whole picture.

Where low paid services are publicly funded (for example home care), wages will not go up because the tax take that funds those wages will not go up.

In the private sector, businesses whose model relies on low paid and underhoused EU labour e.g. Pret etc are much more likely to downscale than to increase wages. There is a limit to how much we will pay for cups of coffee etc.

Automation is the real threat to thousands of these jobs. Look at what's happening in Tesco, for example.

You are forgetting the enormous wage subsidy provided by the state via universal credit et al, and the Claimant Commitment to find 35 hours of work, or else forfeit benefits. Unfortunately, this is only likely to get sharper and more painful for those on low wages after Brexit unless we find a magic money tree somewhere. There is nothing in the universal credit system to incentivise employers to provide better wages or skills enhancement. The benefit system is a key reason why Brexit will not result in higher wages for low paid workers.

I suspect JC is too much for the British electorate, even with a disastrous Brexit. His plan to roll out sectoral collective bargaining is supposed to be the answer to the problems you describe, but it relies on a leap of imagination (not to mention practical barriers) that I suspect is unlikely to take root.

It seems much more likely to me that post Brexit, we will end up with hung parliaments and for the poorest, an entrenched low wage, part-time insecure labour market.

Clavinova · 31/01/2019 11:30

I’m sure Israel will be just as good a market as Saudi for UK arms manufacturers

The article I linked to, says:
In 2017, European governments also bought record levels of defense equipment from Israel

Lweji · 31/01/2019 11:48

If Brexit causes food shortages we might have fewer cake smashes.

Grin

Unless Marie Antoinette has something to say about that. Wink

Lweji · 31/01/2019 11:55

Of course there are long term positives of not being in the EU. The negatives everyone talks about are often tied to the short term issues of exiting the EU rather than actually bring out of the EU.

I agree that long term, eventually, the UK will settle.

I do think the UK would be better in, but not that much harm done in leaving (depending on terms), except in the way it has been mishandled.

The issue for the UK is that world economic players are changing. And a united front within the EU (or agreements with the EU) are beneficial, when facing giants such as the US and China, and eventually India.

The question remains of why people voted for "a" Brexit without knowing or having decided on what type. It's like leaving a job without having another one, or leaving home with nowhere to go.

HesterShaw21 · 31/01/2019 12:03

Unless Maria Antoinette has something to say about that

It's "let them eat chips" now, apparently

inews.co.uk/news/brexit/no-deal-brexit-food-shortages-people-just-go-chippy-dup-sammy-wilson/

HesterShaw21 · 31/01/2019 12:04

*Marie

Buteo · 31/01/2019 12:17

Clavinova Much of Israel's defence exports go to the Asia Pacific region - at $5.4 billion its nearly 3 times as much as exports to Europe ($1.9 billion). Israel is upping its defence spending as well, so I'm sure our defence contractors will be sniffing around for new opportunities.

mobyduck · 31/01/2019 12:30

Yes a divorce is painful but once done we will be able to live life without the confines of being something we’re not
I agree, it would not all be bad. Prices may rise and we may lose our car industry but as JRM says we should see the benefits in 50 years or so.

OP posts:
Isitmybathtimeyet · 31/01/2019 13:08

We export arms (or components) to Israel; we don't import them.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/british-arms-exports-israel-new-record