Tell me - is this rascist?

[PooleySpooley]

Son is mixed race. I am white as are his siblings. He has rarely experienced any racism. He has a really good relationship with his father and his family who I am not with.

He has a PT job.

He told me today that while he is working the checkout he often gets asked “where he is from” and when he says “here” the questioner will probe “originally”.

This shocked me and pissed me off because in my head the questioner is probing more because his answer is unacceptable to them because DS doesn’t look like what the questioners idea of what a British person looks like.

A very good friend says he should be encouraged to be proud of his heritage (which he is but there are many strands to that as it’s a grandparent who is Asian and he has three other grandparents) and is it ok for him to be asked this continually?

I get asked this all the time too although most people can tell my ethnic origin from my name.

It's incredibly rude as how does the asker know that I want to dwell on my ethnic origin or even know what it is. It's possible that I might not even know my ethnic origin if for example I don't know who my father is or either of my parents are.

Can’t it just been seen as chit chat too? For example, I got talking to someone in the surgery a few days ago, never seen her before, asked where she was from and she replied x, which is part of our (very) small town, and I said ‘but where originally?’.

Absolutely, it can - but you got talking to her and presumably both asked each other a number of questions as part of a friendly conversation.

You didn't just go straight up to her and demand "Where are you from?", react nonchalantly and then walk away.

@goldengummybear Yes my town only has a few thousand people, one primary school, and then there are the choice of two high schools in the next town.

Because of that you tend to know everyone your own age, several years above, and several years below. Then we you are also related to a lot of people in that age group, and cousins are friends with people etc, you do end up knowing a lot of people.
It’s only when people move in that you don’t know them, and that’s how they are easy to guess that they aren’t from here.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll okay yeah I absolutely get your point!

This type of racist microaggression is microinvalidation.

“Where are you from?”, “Where were you born?” and “You speak good English” all serve to make the person being asked feel like an alien in own land. The message, whatever the asker's intentions, is "You are not British. You are a foreigner." Encountered on a daily basis, these statements make the receiver always feel "other". And the white person has put themselves in the position as arbitrator of who is and who isn't foreign.

This link is a good read for those of you who still don't get it (saying "it's not racist, just rude"): othersociologist.com/2017/07/15/where-are-you-from-racial-microaggressions/

From the link:

There are three types of microaggressions that can happen automatically or without the White person being aware of the origins and consequences of their racism.

1. Microassault: purposeful discriminatory comments, such as racial epithets that are intended to demean.

2. Microinsult: rude or insensitive comments that racial minorities hear frequently. This can be insinuations that minorities are only hired through affirmative action programs and that this makes them less worthy. Another example is a teacher who fails to pay attention to students of colour, sending a message that their contributions are less valued.

3. Microinvalidation: comments that negate or nullify people of colour’s experiences of racism. This can be delivered as a masked “compliment” (“you speak good English!”), or as “well-meaning” push-back (“I don’t see colour/ we’re all just human beings”), or as a rebuke for pointing out racism (“don’t be so sensitive!”). Another example is the question, “Where are you from?,” which is a reminder that people of colour are seen as “perpetual foreigners.”

If someone is interesting, and I work with them,I sometimes ask them their Ethnic origins. Simply because it may be interesting. National meal, local politics, etc.

This thread crops up on Mumsnet every couple of months. There's always a roughly 60/40 split between people saying "Yes it's racist / ignorant / vile etc" and people saying "I get asked this all the time and it doesn't bother me / people are just curious". You're not going to resolve this by asking on an internet forum. I'm mixed race and happy to talk about my heritage because I feel like it's a major part of m identity Many other mixed race and non-white people feel their primary identity is British, and don't feel comfortable being asked about their ethnic heritage. If your son falls into the latter camp, it's not going to change his mind if some strangers on the internet disagree with him. He's not obliged to answer any questions; he can just say "I find that question a bit racist / offensive" and leave it at that.

Encountered on a daily basis, these statements make the receiver always feel "other".

But the whole idea of microaggressions etc rests on the assumption that being "other" is a bad thing (which is in itself problematic). Not everyone feels that way. Some people are proud of being different or "other", and it's not anyone else's place to tell them they shouldn't be.

Be proud of where you are from, what’s wrong with people taking an interest in where you are from. EVERY county in GB has their own dialect. It’s a great thing, just like we have our own identities. It’s what makes the world go round. We also have our own countries and religions. Why can’t people ask????

I have this ALL the time and it's utterly frustrating and yes slightly racist, not asking me where I am from but questioning my answer as apparently saying I am French (born and raised) isn't enough, is utterly annoying I remember having a conversation with a hairdresser along the lines of:

" Where are you from?"
" Oh, I am French"
" No, but originally."
" Well originally, I am French, I was born and raised in France, NOW if you ask me where my parents are from, my mum is French and my dad is from X..."
" Oh yeah, I mean no offense but I could tell you weren't from France, France, I mean..."
"..."

It's not as bad as one of the waiter I once had where I told him I was French and he went on like:

" Well more African than French though"
" Uh, no, I am French, I was born there, I was raised there, my mum is French and I have never ever stepped in Africa can't see how I can be more African than I am French ? "
" Meh, mixed race people always culturally belong more to their ethnic heritage than the country they are born in. I mean I love Africa so nothing against it but I wouldn't consider you French no. " (He wasn't even French, the fuck.)

It drives me nuts. It's people being shocked that I have got the French accent while not looking like their preconceived idea of a French woman. It's frustrating, it's annoying, and it's definitely racist. If someone tell me they are British I accept that, I know people wouldn't question where I am ORIGINALLY from if I was white and suited their preconceived idea of what a French lady looked like even if I didn't really have the French accent to back that up.

But the whole idea of microaggressions etc rests on the assumption that being "other" is a bad thing (which is in itself problematic). Some people are proud of being different or "other", and it's not anyone else's place to tell them they shouldn't be.

That's great but othering does tend to lead to discrimination, exclusion and the occasional mass murder. Or just charging them £65 to stay.

Non.... that’s like asking a British person where they are from?? Wales, England, Scotland! I think you will find most people are prou d of there heritage and WANT to talk about it

Yes it is, albeit subtle. He should be able to respond with wherever he is from without being prodded for more info. He wouldn't be asked 'originally' if he was white. People would take his answer at face value.

What on earth does "we're all human beings" or "i don't see colour" mean? One is obvious and one is a lie so i don't understand the purpose of either statement.

I forget what colour friends are until they say "as a black woman i find........" And then I feel stupid that i forgot.

Haribeau, no, "Where are you from originally?" is the step before "Go back to where you came from."

I’m mixed race and from 50 years ago when it was much rarer. I really don’t care, it’s obvious I’m not totally white and I’m not offended by people asking. As for othering well it doesn’t actually bother me at all.

It’s a bit careless but having been subject to racism as a child and younger woman I just find this clumsy.

That's great but othering does tend to lead to discrimination, exclusion and the occasional mass murder. Or just charging them £65 to stay.

No, the belief that being different / "other" is bad leads to those things. Simply noticing and acknowledging differences, without attaching value to them, doesn't.

He has dark skin, his eyes are beautifully half mine and half Mongolian hooded and he has an Afro.

I think this is why they ask. He sounds visually intriguing and people won't be able to place his heritage so they ask. It's harmless curiosity, although the phrase 'yes but where are you from originally?' is clumsy and ignorant. Far better to ask 'what is your racial heritage?'

I might ask someone where they were from if it was obvious they were foreign from their accent but I wouldn't ask someone with a local accent as they are clearly British so it seems nosey and insensitive. Unless I knew them reasonably well, then I'd ask.

I think its just ignorant but many people are simpletons.

I don’t think it’s racist to be interested in another person’s ethnic heritage, unless there’s an obvious assumption that you regard your own as superior to others. I do think it’s a bit odd and intrusive to question a stranger about it in a context where you don’t really need to be making conversation at all.

This is a really interesting discussion.

I don't think white people in Britain should get to decide whether people, who have a different colour skin, find this question racist.

That's like men deciding what is sexist. Only women get to decide if it is or isn't.

It seems like some people do find such questions racist and some people don't. So to avoid causing offence to those people who DO find it racist, maybe the question just shouldn't be asked?

If you know there is a chance that a person may feel othered by the question, you would have to be a bit of a cunt to think your curiosity overrode their feelings.

‘Where are you from originally?’ Not even close to what I said, idiot! It’s people like you that fuck everything up, be a decent human being, stop being bitter

Uh, I was addressing the OP, who's been spot on throughout. What exactly am I bitter about?

No, the belief that being different / "other" is bad leads to those things.

But that's what "othering" means.