To ask how to deal with non-vaccinating SIL and Bro

[Nomnomchanger]

Have named changed. Would appreciate advice on how to resolve this difficult family situation.

In short, brother and SIL have refused to vaccinate their son, who is now 18 months old.
No vaccinations at all (ie, not just MMR). They say they have ‘done a lot of research’ and are happy with their decision and want the rest of the family to respect that.

We have a DS, 3 months younger, and currently ttc #2. We are pro vaccination and think they are selfish and short- sighted, esp as we all live in Central London, and not an isolated island.

We had a huge argument with bro and SIL mid last year on account of their refusal to vaccinate and have not spoken since.
Our view is that it’s one thing them demanding that we respect their parenting choice, but when that decision has potential to impact on us (and others), that’s where we have an impasse.

SIL has never been particularly friendly but claimed that our decision not to want to be in their company was us ‘alienating their son’.

My parents are not particularly helpful. My mother (worried that she will also get blacklisted from seeing non vacc grandson if she criticises their decision) says that bro and SIL ‘have done a lot of research’ and that in any case we have no idea who is or isn’t vaccinated at all the classes we attend (ie, what difference does it make).

Christmas was very difficult, as you can imagine. Not sure how to resolve this going forward.

Yellow fever is s live vaccine and the risks of side effects ( and potentially death)are greater the older you are. This would have been explained to the Dr who died.As a travel vaccine it is a choice as you can choose not to visit that country. Kenya does not have yellow fever as they have a vaccination programme , countries surrounding Kenya still carry that risk.
Vaccination effectiveness is dependent on the percentage of the population being vaccinated.
It worked for small pox that’s why the vaccination was stopped in the 1970’s.

Sounds like you dislike your SIL, so maybe this is a good reason to be able to go low contact.

I am pro vaccination. On the whole I think anti vaxers are selfish, ignorant arseholes who pick and choose what research they decide to give credence to and I wouldn't totally rule out a movement towards vaccinations being mandatory in early years settings with caveats of course but you really can't do much here OP, other than not seeing them when you are pregnant and before DC2 is immunised.

I cannot stand this trend for announcing that you've done your own "research" and now know far more about a subject than the experts do. Said "research" usually consists of googling.

"I've done my own research, there's hardly any difference between breastmilk and formula"

"I've done my own research on Charlie Gard's condition and learned that the doctors at GOSH were lying, if they'd just tried a bit harder to help him he would be walking and talking now"

"I've done my own research, the EU is bluffing, they need us more than we need them"

Drives me crazy!

Perhaps you could see the parents for dinner to socialize? Obviously you can't see the child while you are pregnant or allow contact until your children are all fully vaccinated as their child is a known risk. Perhaps if your first is over a year old you could all meet in a park though? I wouldn't go into their home or a confined space while you are TTC or pregnant. Suggest dinner or a park meet maybe as an olive branch. Don't involve the grandparents - obviously they will never choose and will try not to critisise. For what it's worth I think they're f***g idiots for not vaccinating.

Unvaccinated children can allow for viral mutation which can cause immunity from vaccines to be ineffective. I wouldn’t let my children around anyone that isn’t vaccinated!

Oh yeah, research reading mummy blogs.

I have no respect for parents who make this choice. It is irresponsible in the extreme and they deserve to be told how stupid they are. I don’t actually care if it’s their choice. I could eat a lightbulb out of choice if I wanted to, it doesn’t make it any less stupid.

Have you read this article about how the WHO says anti vac is a global health threat?

I don’t think they’ll change their kind as they sound thick as fuck, but I’d forward that and ask them to forward their research to me to change my mind. I’d also tell them I wouldn’t be spending time with them to protect my own children, as is my right.

For the avoidance of doubt - I’m obviously not talking about parents that don’t vaccinate for medical reasons as I know there’s a few posters on here that get very het up if this isn’t specified.

@3WildOnes wow your best friend is an idiot. Glad she’s not my doctor.

My best friend is a doctor and she is not vaccinating her children.

That seriously makes me wonder about their safety. I also know a doctor who has come to the same conclusion.

I am pro Vax but I think your argument is flawed.

No child under 3.4 is fully vaccinated against MMR for example, but presumably you're not avoiding those? (It's also possible to get and pass on eg measles if you have been vaccinated although of course less likely).

And there are lots of children who are not vaxxed due to illness or allergies - would you also avoid them?

I don't think non vaccinated individuals pose a significant risk. The risk is from the lack of herd immunity, and of course they are contributing to that risk.

zzzzz

EVERYONE understands that. Everyone.

Anti vaxxers are not people that cannot vaccinate their children. They are people that don’t because they’ve ‘done their research’.

Those that can vaccinate should, to protect those that can’t.

I'm not against vaccinating, but chose to do a slower vacc schedule. We lived outside of the UK and the number of mandatory vaccs (before nursery) were much higher and quicker than in the UK. So I also don't agree with their choices, but surely - it is their choice.
A matter-of-fact convo about how you feel, without getting preachy, should suffice. There are plenty of concerns about the side effects of vaccs out there to worry very concerned parents, and they have made their choice on that basis. It is about RESPECT - we really shouldn't lose the ability to disagree but respect a different point of view. There is something in the tone of your message that makes it sound like you don't like them anyway?

Diana she is clearly not an idiot. I really don’t think you can get through medical school and be an idiot. It’s not the choice I made for my own children but she made the choice that felt right for her as did I.

How would you feel if their child couldn't be vaccinated for medical reasons (such people exist, or used to anyway). Their immune systems can't take it.

Would you still avoid the child because of the risk to you,? Since risk to you is the only declared reason not to see them.

Clearly they are both fuckwits of the highest order, but be honest, it's a convenient excuse to not see them isn't it?

They don't actually pose any sort of threat to your health.

@3WildOnes I disagree.

She can be clever and still be an idiot. Or wilfully ignorant and irresponsible if that suits you better.

@zzzzz honestly I probably would have avoided them if my children were ill or theirs were. I suspect they’d be upfront about it.

My kids are old enough for this to not really be an issue, and I never met anyone who hasn’t vaccinated - aside from of course my neighbours when I was a kid, whose children passed on whooping cough to my newborn brother. He spent his first three weeks of life in hospital and nearly died.

I really don't get the angst that some people have with children that haven't had vaccines being around their children that have been vaccinated, surely they are protected? I say this as a parent with a vaccinated child.

I can understand if someones immunity is compromised being wary etc but some pro vaxers do seem rather petty, you probably come into contact with numerous unvaccinated people on a day to day basis, whether you agree with it or not it's not, if your protected why be so scared?

But you aren’t just talking about a cold etc, vaccines have been developed against serious diseases with high mortality rates or life-long conditions resulting from it. If a child who hadn’t been vaccinated against MMR (example) I would definitely avoid!! Congenital Rubella Syndrome is an awful condition which OP could contract from her niece/nephew without even realising the child had it as it can be asymptomatic. Very scary!! I would avoid any anti-vaxxers OP!

Unfortunately, mutations can occur in non-vaccinated people resulting in ineffective immunisation from vaccines. Scary and selfish of parents that don’t vaccinate their children

If you've had your full set of vaccinations I don't see the problem?

Mutations can lead to new strains of virus which can mean the antibodies produced from the vaccines that would normally mean you are protected now won’t recognise the new strains meaning you aren’t protected anymore.

"In fact, hardly anyone over 50 will be protected from measles"

Umm - we may well not have had the vaccine, because it was only just rolling out when we were infants. But instead we have had the disease (and may well, have seen the horrible consequences directly in family, friends and classmates).

We have such enduring protection from the disease that NHS does not include us in the catch up programme. The over 50s got their herd immunity the hard way.

Unless you're going to demand to see the immunisation records of every baby at any baby group you go to then it would be a bit ridiculous not allowing your children near their cousins. Your kids will mix with unvaccinated children all the time.