To ask how to deal with non-vaccinating SIL and Bro

[Nomnomchanger]

Have named changed. Would appreciate advice on how to resolve this difficult family situation.

In short, brother and SIL have refused to vaccinate their son, who is now 18 months old.
No vaccinations at all (ie, not just MMR). They say they have ‘done a lot of research’ and are happy with their decision and want the rest of the family to respect that.

We have a DS, 3 months younger, and currently ttc #2. We are pro vaccination and think they are selfish and short- sighted, esp as we all live in Central London, and not an isolated island.

We had a huge argument with bro and SIL mid last year on account of their refusal to vaccinate and have not spoken since.
Our view is that it’s one thing them demanding that we respect their parenting choice, but when that decision has potential to impact on us (and others), that’s where we have an impasse.

SIL has never been particularly friendly but claimed that our decision not to want to be in their company was us ‘alienating their son’.

My parents are not particularly helpful. My mother (worried that she will also get blacklisted from seeing non vacc grandson if she criticises their decision) says that bro and SIL ‘have done a lot of research’ and that in any case we have no idea who is or isn’t vaccinated at all the classes we attend (ie, what difference does it make).

Christmas was very difficult, as you can imagine. Not sure how to resolve this going forward.

I agree with you that it’s not just them asking you to respect a parenting decision, it’s that their decision has the potential to seriously affect others.

As pp have said, you don’t know who’s been vaccinated and who hasn’t - and neither do they, so their unvaccinated children are not only vulnerable themselves but are endangering other children who are unvaccinated for very good reasons - such as having seriously compromised immune systems, for example.

I would want to know what their ‘research’ revealed and the actual reasons they won’t vaccinate. Do they think it’s just a choice and that both points of view are equally valid? Because that is really stupid.

Absolutely YANBU, and yes you may be feeling that you are ‘right’ but that’s because (unless there is some valid reason they are keeping from you) you are right.

Where you go from here I’m not sure, but YANBU.

The trouble is that we no longer see these childhood diseases on a regular basis so haven't seen conveniently forgotten how severe they can be and how terrible the side effects are.
People who don't vaccinate are relying on the fact that the majority of people do vaccinate to protect their child. It's fine not to vaccinate for valid reasons such as allergy to the ingredients. However, as more stupid parents take these decisions based on misinformation preached on the internet, the herd protection theory is less effective.

You should respect their decision just as they have to respect your decision to avoid family gatherings until your child has had all their vaccinations.
Tell your mother that you've done your research and come to the conclusion that most of the anti-vaccinate information on the internet is flawed or mis-represented. As she accepts DB and SILs research she will have to respect that your reseach suggests the opposite and you beg to differ.

Genuine question, what is the risk to a fully vaccinated pregnant woman in coming into contact with non vaccinated children? there isn’t any risk.
I not sure this is strictly true. I believe you can occaissionally get diseases that you've been vaccinated against but they will normally be mild doses as your body already has built up antibodies. In a healthy person, this shouldn't be too much of a problem but in a pregnant women there could be a small risk of complications.

Aghh my SIL did not vaccinate her DCs and she failed to mention that. She brought the DCs over to meet my DC when he was about 10 weeks. Not a word.
He has had most of his vaccines now but it actually makes me quite angry if I think about it.
We have never spoken about it. I know MIL is not happy because so many babies and children died of this kind of preventable diseases (preventable now) but she doesn't say anything either.

If I had another one I am not sure what I would do in regards to her DCs

As a doctor this “I’ve done my research” line always cracks me up. There is no research!!!!! The only research paper written about vaccinations and their potential to cause (yeah right) autism was found to be falsified and the Dr in question thrown out of the profession. People who don’t vaccinate are in fact idiots. Some might say it’s a different type of natural selection. Because we know our kids won’t die from polio, measles, whooping cough, diphtheria but theirs could! 😂

Avoid them!

They also clearly don’t understand what “herd immunity” means. So they are willingly putting some members of our population who for actual medical reasons can’t be vaccyat risk. Real winners aren’t they!!!

Research? Don't make me laugh.

I'd ask the doctor about the risks to you when you're pregnant as you may have immunity already.

If you have another baby absolutely you are NBU to keep them away from an unvaccinated child. Love the roles above saying their kids were near some unvaccinated kids and nothing happened so it's fine. There is currently a measles outbreak in UK cities! And TB. Measles kills and while the chances of this are low, the chance of complications such as deafness and blindness are high. While it is up to them if they want to take this risk with their child (and any vulnerable person their child meets), it is totally up to you if you want to keep your vulnerable baby away from their higher risk child.

You are not isolating their child, they are maki mg a decision to opt out of herd immunity so they can't be surprised when vulnerable members of the herd want to avoid them

I assume by doing research they havent done an accredited published peer reviewed scientific study?! Thought not.

To be honest even when you meet up with them again once your future baby has 13 month injections I think it will be hard to make a relationship with someone that stupid and selfish

While I don't agree with their views I don't think I would avoid them, as others have said you and your child could come into contact with un vaccinated children every day without knowing and there's little risk of catching anything from them.

Tbh I didn't even know that when ttc you had to avoid unvacc children and I don't remember every having a conversation with family or friends about it and don't know who has or hasn't vaccinated their children and at nursery and school I wouldn't expect to be told.

I agree with you that they are irresponsible not to vaccinate.

But you ABU to avoid them. It's pointless, you have no idea of children that might not be vaccinated at baby groups, swimming etc are illnesses are often infectious before there are symptoms.

My friends nephew developed measles despite being vaccinated, so there are no guarantees. Which is precisely why you need herd immunity for it to be effective.

YANBU and I would keep DC2 away until they are one. It’s not worth the risk whatsoever.

You respect their choice not to vaccinate by keeping quite.
They respect your choice not to see them because they don't vaccinate becuase there uneducated by keeping quite too. Simple.

The interactions between family and randoms at baby groups are different ime. Babies and toddlers are more often playing in parallel. Older cousins are far more in their face.

What I'd like to tell them (but wouldn't really): "I've done a lot of research too, and mine says that low intellect is contagious, so I can't see you any more in case we catch it."

I don't understand what your issue is - in daily life you could meet many people and have no idea if they have vacc or not. Why avoid them even if you are ttc? Do you check ppl at work or in a pub you go to are vacc - of course not! I don't even had any idea if my SILs and BILs have vacc ot not - makes no odds to me.

I don't see how the 2 are linked. 90pc of the population still vaccinate. This is lower in some communities Unless you're actively seeking out groups in sections of the community that don't vaccinate then chances are in most classses all babies in a class will be vaccinated. You can't not leave the house to avoid the v small risk of mixing with unvaccinated babies. You can reasonably avoid situations where you know for certain your baby will closely mix with a completely unvaccinated child. The two aren't comparable

One of my friends has a child who isn’t vaccinated and I don’t really think much of it. I am up to date with mine and so is my DD although I’m not sure what I’ll do if I have a 2nd one.
There isn’t really much you can do and parents are entitled to not vaccinate their children (even if I don’t understand why not)
Is it worth not ever seeing your nephew, brother and SIL over? I mean, had you not have had the conversation then you would never know. I don’t think I have ever asked my in laws if they vaccinated their children

Experience tells us surely that we are likely to pass round diseases within our family and friendship groups more easily than between strangers. Yes of course we can pick things up in general life but within the home your chances of sharing whatever you have go up! Or at least that's my my experience.

The problem for a fully vaccinated woman and an unvaccinated child is that you can be fully vaccinated and still not immune, for some people even further boosters don't convey immunity so the risk remains.

Why do you need to deal with it? Presumably your child(ren) are vaccinated.

So it doesn't affect you. And the fact that vaccine damage legislation exists, means that there is a risk to vaccination. Come on a guy died last week after having a yellow fever jab! Not quite the same, and I believe the side effects were known about, and he took a calculated risk. But it illustrates the point that vaccination is not risk-free. And it's all very well virtue signalling but ultimately you won't help a parent with a child who has suffered side effects.

No doubt you have made decisions for your child(ren) that they don't agree with, either, or will in the future.

Either you want to get on with them, or you don't. If you don't particularly like them, fair enough. But don't use vaccination as an excuse because it's not a good enough reason.

When I was pregnant with DC2 I got whooping cough despite having been vaccinated. My vaccine didn't protect me. It was one of the most miserable experiences of my life. In the end I had to take antibiotics that weren't safe for the baby because I was so ill. Vaccines fail. I wouldn't knowingly go near them until DC2 is 1 and fully vaccinated.

I do think you've over-reacted here, OP. If you and your children are vaccinated (obviously not a new baby) then you are as protected as you can be - and you don't know about the other children in groups/shops/softplay etc.

If I had a new baby I'd probably want to stay away from them but the not speaking at all and not seeing them is a bit odd tbh.

Don't expect your mother to do anything - that is so unfair.

Your mum is right in that you don’t know how people you come into contact with are not vaccinating. My best friend is a doctor and she is not vaccinating her children. It’s not something I would fall out over or stop seeing a someone over.

Well op, if you are vaccinated you aren't likely to catch those particular illness or if you do, it would be a mild infection.

I wouldn't alienate them. When you have your new baby keep out of their way until he or she is vaccinated.