To ask how to deal with non-vaccinating SIL and Bro

[Nomnomchanger]

Have named changed. Would appreciate advice on how to resolve this difficult family situation.

In short, brother and SIL have refused to vaccinate their son, who is now 18 months old.
No vaccinations at all (ie, not just MMR). They say they have ‘done a lot of research’ and are happy with their decision and want the rest of the family to respect that.

We have a DS, 3 months younger, and currently ttc #2. We are pro vaccination and think they are selfish and short- sighted, esp as we all live in Central London, and not an isolated island.

We had a huge argument with bro and SIL mid last year on account of their refusal to vaccinate and have not spoken since.
Our view is that it’s one thing them demanding that we respect their parenting choice, but when that decision has potential to impact on us (and others), that’s where we have an impasse.

SIL has never been particularly friendly but claimed that our decision not to want to be in their company was us ‘alienating their son’.

My parents are not particularly helpful. My mother (worried that she will also get blacklisted from seeing non vacc grandson if she criticises their decision) says that bro and SIL ‘have done a lot of research’ and that in any case we have no idea who is or isn’t vaccinated at all the classes we attend (ie, what difference does it make).

Christmas was very difficult, as you can imagine. Not sure how to resolve this going forward.

There's nothing you can do, you're already not seeing them , you won't change their mind. I found out last week two of my now adult cousins aren't vaccinated, apparently my aunt and their older sister both had severe allergic reactions to vaccinations, aunt thought it was just her so got oldest DC vaccinated she then fell ill after jabs and ended up in hospital so she didn't vaccinate the younger two. I had no idea and neither did my parents, although mum remembers the eldest being hospitalised. I'm very pro vaccination, and am not convinced the vaccination caused the ill health, but frankly it's not my business. Your mum is right you don't know who isn't vaccinated who has contact with your child.

What they do or don’t decide to do is none of your business. You don’t have to agree with it but it’s not your place to have blazing rows with them or to try to impart your views on to them. How would you feel if it was the other way around and they tried to tell you you were being irresponsible by vaccinating your children?

The reality here is that you will be coming into contact with unvaccinated children on a daily basis, if your baby is in nursery for instance there will be unvaccinated children there and no-one will know who they are and what they have and haven’t been vaccinated against. Similarly if you go to baby groups the children there

Thanks everyone. I’m going to ask MN to delete this thread as I don’t wish for it to be Daily Fail fodder.

Presumably though you will be mixing with lots of other parents and children each day, some of which will also be anti-vaxers but you won’t necessarily know. I am pro vaccinations but I think you are a bit ott to avoid all contact.

Anti-vaxxers have always ‘done a lot of research’. All this means is that they’ve Googled. The way they talk you’d think they’d conducted their own clinical trials.

OP, are you vaccinated? I could be being a dolt, but in that case, where is the issue while trying to conceive? (I strongly recommend updating your whooping cough vaccination regardless of your in-laws by the way, it's utter shite to have when pregnant, I busted a couple of ribs - and I was immunised!)

I totally agree when you have a new born, and if they dont' like that, they can fold their opinion until it's all sharp corners, sit on it and gently rotate.

They're not going to change their stance. You're not going to change yours.

But I do hope you can find a way to respect each others right to parent according to what you think is best for your children, even if you vehemently disagree with their stance and to co-exist. I have to say I do feel for the grandparents, far from feeling like Switzerland, I imagine they feel like they're sitting ducks in no-mans land!

You’re just escalating something because you are enjoying feeling right.

I suspect this is at least partly true.

They're entirely within their rights to not vaccinate. That's nothing to do with you.

If you want to avoid them until your own children are fully vaccinated, then that's your perogative. I probably wouldn't do it myself, but I understand why you would.

Genuine question, what is the risk to a fully vaccinated pregnant woman in coming into contact with non vaccinated children?

Hit post too soon..... if you go to baby groups the children there may not be vaccinated and you won’t know. Or parents may not be vaccinated if they are e.g. from other countries. I know that I’ve never been vaccinated against measles for instance although I am immune to rubella as was tested in pregnancy. Similarly mumps wasn’t a vaccination when I was a child and as I haven’t had it there’s a chance I might not be immune to it although my sister had it and I didn’t but I may have gained immunity then.

Basically anyone over a certain age won’t have been vaccinated and may not have the immunity if they haven’t caught the illnesses, and equally many children may not have been vaccinated for a number of reasons, but you have no idea of knowing who those children are or what they have and haven’t been vaccinated against.

FWIW I vaccinated my own ds and while I do agree with vaccination for the most part I do also think that as much as people have strongly held views on those who don’t vaccinate, often those with views against do so for their own reasons and those are not always (although are obviously sometimes) based on the readings of the hysterical or the tabloids.

My mother lost four of her seven siblings to diphtheria in childhood, in the days before immunisation was available. Antivaxxers are idiots who presumably would like a return to those days of high infant mortality.
I’d avoid them until all your DCs have had a full immunisation schedule completed.

Thanks everyone. I’m going to ask MN to delete this thread as I don’t wish for it to be Daily Fail fodder.

Don’t be ridiculous. This will hardly identify you. Your brother and SIL are hardly the only anti-vaxxers in the world. Sadly.

@nellie and I've never met my great aunt because at 6 they dressed her in the bridesmaid's dress she should have worn to my grandma's wedding and buried her in the ground 2 weeks before the wedding. She was 6. My great-grandma had a nervous breakdown and didn't recover for 6 years. That was diptheria. Ok that was the 40's, let's fast forward to the 60s when Polio was rife and my mum knew 2 people her age (teens) in leg braces. Or the fact that last year there were 2 people who died of measles, compared with 51 in 1968 when the vaccine was introduced. That's 49 people who would have died who are now alive!

Avoid them. And when their precious offspring get the horrible diseases, rather than sound smug, a 'Oh, poor you! I'm so grateful I won't have to see my children so ill.'

I grew up in the late 1970s and early 80s. A classmate was off for 3 months after having Whopping Cough. Her baby brother wasn't so lucky. Four of the boys in my class who went down with mumps have had to adopt rather than have children of their own. One is also deaf as a result, as is a colleague. Far too many children disappeared from school as a result of not being vaccinated - I suppose 'out of sight, out of mind' applies to this as well - if you don't see them, you don't accept that it could possibly happen.

In the 1990s, it was almost commonplace to have a couple of children from a small school in hospital in winter - and die or have amputations due to meningitis - plenty of us lost friends at University. And Sense is a charity almost completely predicated upon the consequences of contracting Rubella/German Measles during pregnancy.

Most families from countries where vaccination isn't available for free are grateful for the vaccinations - and can't understand why we're so neglectful of children.

Anti-vaxxers have always ‘done a lot of research’. All this means is that they’ve Googled. The way they talk you’d think they’d conducted their own clinical trials. I know someone who was actually advised by a paediatrician not to vaccinate her other children after one of them was vaccine damaged. While I think that it’s fair to say that a lot of people have been drawn into the non vaccination debate, and tbh I think the tabloids had a huge part to play in that by whipping up the MMR hysteria, vaccine damage does occur, and the UK does have a vaccine damage fund, so in a small minority of cases vaccination can be harmful and this shouldn’t be dismissed just because for the most part it is not.

Genuine question, what is the risk to a fully vaccinated pregnant woman in coming into contact with non vaccinated children? there isn’t any risk.

@Lauriemarlowe The danger with unvaccinated children and pregnant women is the risk of German Measles which can cause defects in the fetus.

I disagree with their view but you need to respect that it is their decision to take.

You are being a bit silly, a bit frivolous with your DH's family relationships and somewhat sanctimonious to boot.

Would you avoid my parents? Neither of them have been vaccinated against measles. In fact, hardly anyone over 50 will be protected from measles. I know a girl who missed her mmr jabs cause of chemo... would you allow contact with her?

I find people who choose not to vax hugely frustrating. It’s such a first world luxury to refuse a vaccine for really harmful illnesss. But the ops attitude doesn’t help us either. We need to keep talking abound these issues in a calm non judgemental manner.

Anti-vaxxers have always ‘done a lot of research’. All this means is that they’ve Googled.

I ran into a mum in the playground who I knew from sight at some of the kids' groups our DDs went to.

Somehow we got into talking about vaccs; she was an anti-vaccer, and used that line about "done my research". Following it up with "...and often you can help the children's immune system by avoiding too much sugar."

Aside from the sheer bollox of that statement, the first time I ever met her she was getting told off by the kids' group staff for filling her DD with sweets during the session! [crying]

I hope they at least do the polio one. I just don't get it.
There is far more research on the benefits of vaccines than not.
I wonder where they are getting their research?

I think as long as your children have the vaccinations not to worry to much its their choice. The children you meet at parks playgroups may have not been vaccinated either. Just be aware when your pregnant incase of rubella. There are loads of viruses out there that children can get which are no vaccines for especially certain strains of meningitis. I don't think there selfish they just have different believes and ideas to you and are taking a risk. I suppose it would be more risky if you or your family with immunocompromised.

The danger with unvaccinated children and pregnant women is the risk of German Measles which can cause defects in the fetus. no it isn’t a risk if the pregnant woman herself is immune to the virus as the immunity passes from the mother to the baby through the umbilical chord.

After all if non vaccinated children were a risk to vaccinated pregnant women then doctors, nurses etc wouldn’t be able to work in hospitals where there are many unvaccinated children for numerous reasons if they were pregnant.

The danger with unvaccinated children and pregnant women is the risk of German Measles which can cause defects in the foetus

The OP can get her rubella immunity checked to determine her individual risk.

Are they flat earthers too. Selfish idiots.

If a certain percentage of the population are not vaccinated, it puts effectiveness of the programme at risk. Some people do not acquire immunity even following the vaccination, some have reduced immune systems ( ie Cancer) some have allergic reactions to the vaccines. Yes anti vacc’s have a choice with their child but unfortunately that choice puts others at risk.
I think its irresponsible not to vaccinate your children if able. If you dont vaccinate then you should only be able to access nurseries/schools that do not have at risk kids.
Obviously this is only my personal opinion but i actually think Wakefield and his flawed research has a lot to answer for.
vaccination programmes cost a lot of money,the government would not invest if it wasnt a good idea.

I think you are right to delete. My family member was an anti MMR parent. It's tricky because you don't want long term issues.

We avoided them between initial visit where I calculated that their toddler would be hard pushed to pass anything on to my newborn. There was hardly any contact plus I was assuming the baby has some immunity from me.

Then we saw them briefly after mine had had the first MMR. We only went away where the children were really p!aying in close contact when mine had had both MMR.

Good luck.

YANBU - I wouldn't mix with them ever.