School using dd to help support sen children

[Jammiebammie]

Rubbish title sorry, couldn’t think what else to put. I don’t think iabu but would really appreciate some input.

Bit of background, dd2 (11) is in p7 and has an anxiety disorder, she sees cahms for this. She also has cfs and does struggle a bit some times. Youngest dd is disabled and although sad to admit, it does impact on dd2s anxiety quite a lot and we are working hard to help her deal with this.

At school, dd is a great student and we’ve never had any issues with her in that respect. Shes a house captain, always has good work and is often called upon to help teachers etc.
Dd has been on the receiving end of bullying which took forever to sort with the school, but it has improved this last year.
I have had many meetings with the school for dds health and well-being, she sometimes needs to take herself off for ‘cool off times’ where she has been stressed, or finding things too difficult (we had issues with her self harming which was heartbreaking, but she seems so deal with really well atm)

Sorry for long post there, but didn’t want to drip feed.

Before Xmas, dd was asked to look after a little girl in p1 who has additional needs. This was at break and lunch times for the period of a week. Dd found this very difficult, she had to sit with her girl and make sure she ate lunch, didn’t scream and a few other things. I wasn’t happy about this as dd seemed so stressed about it, but she begged me not to phone the school, as it only lasted a week and the school holidays were looming I did respect her wishes and I just let it go.

Today she comes home in tears and has told me for the last week she has been given a little boy within additional needs to look after. This has been since last week and they want her to do it for another 2 weeks, every single break and lunch time. She has been told to tell him not to kick and hit people and to be on alert for his behaviour. He was hitting her today and spitting in her face and she has to just ‘deal with it’. She has to feed him lunch and took him to the toilet too.
She was told that there weren’t enough support teachers to help, and as a house captain she has a responsibility to help the school.
To say I am fuming is an understatement! She doesn’t want me to phone but I will tomorrow, I can’t believe they have put this on a child who needs extra support at home, and dealing with a disabled sibling this is the last thing she needs. It’s also not fair on the children who she has been asked to watch, their needs aren’t being met, dd isn’t trained to deal with any of these issues and it is so wrong and lazy of the school to ask student to take this on (I suspect there are other p7s looking after younger children but I haven’t confirmed this with dd).

Is it even legal for the school to do this? If it was my younger dd being looked after by another student and not her support teacher I think I would be just as mad, but the fact they are well aware of dd2s struggles and have plans in place for when she is overwhelmed, I just can’t beleive this.

Any ideas of how I can speak to the school to rectify this? Any legislations I can quote? I obviously won’t go in all guns blazing and will get proper facts from the school first, but surely this can’t be acceptable.

Sorry this is so long, well done if you got this far!

You’re doing really well OP and must be emotionally exhausted. Don’t hold back the fight, threaten with the press if need be. They must surely know what they’re doing is wrong! Asking a pupil to see to the toileting needs of another pupil FFS.
Stay strong

Sorry to hear there was such a poor outcome. Definitely take it further.

Sorry to hear about your younger dd, hope she’s on the mend.

Good that you have got a meeting and writing it all down including what outcomes you would like is a great idea. I would second the recommended Over The Wall camps for siblings and they also have health challenge camps for those with health conditions. Applications have opened for this year and the camps are free. Hope next week goes well and life gets less hectic.

I'd be inclined to ask what the parents of the children concerned think of a child being tasked to sort them out in the toilet, rather than provide them with the TA I suspect their care plan/budget states.

Because, of course, the parents have consented to their child being left under the care of another vulnerable child, haven't they?

It would be a serious abdication of the school's responsibilities to the younger child to use him as some sort of teaching aid to help older children learn responsibility, and if I were the mother of that child that would make me utterly furious. It's perfectly obvious that they were using your daughter as a cheap supervisor for him and in fact probably chose her because they knew she was responsible, not because they wanted her to learn responsibility. It might be worth testing that assertion to ask whether they make every other child in your daughter's year group do this: if they claim that they make even the scatty ones do it, that would be verging on negligence, but if they don't then they'll have to admit what a load of bollocks this is.

It's clear the younger child needs to be supervised in break times. Ask the school whether they have funding for a full time carer for him, and if not, whether they have asked the local authority for it and/or helped his parents get an EHCP and adequate funding attached to it.

Interesting that it was other girls that have also been asked to do this. Sexist crap - it's a girl's job to look after a boy.

why is everything posted by jacomax being deleted?

I hope you are all doing okay .

I spotted that too biscuit. Another thing to add to list Jammie?

This is absolutely shocking! I have worked in a school as a 1-1 SEN supporter and honestly it is such a difficult job, I feel so sad for both your dd and the little boy. Also if she is doing his button up and going into a toilet alone with him- even after he had finished using it- it is a safeguarding risk!

Sorry to hear your wee one has been in hospital [again] OP - hope she’s home again now, or will be soon.

Absolutely dire response from school & think that (though your plate’s more than full enough just now I know!) taking it further is the right thing to do for all the children involved. It’s really important they not be allowed to get away with filling their support staff gaps with P7 children (& as a PP noted, P7 girls, specifically - obviously can’t learn too young that the world expects women to shoulder the burden when it comes to caring am aware there are men who act as unpaid carers but they are very much in the minority & invariably lauded for doing so in way women doing same things are not *).

Good luck moving forwards with this. Oh & I really hope I didn’t worry you with what I said - I remember ridiculous amounts of my childhood in incredibly vivid detail (which can be lovely, happy memories to curl up inside when I miss my mother), is not that I was desperately scarred or anything. At the time it was pretty wretched with everything else going on & it makes me cross as an adult, if I’m prompted to think of it, to think that the school felt it was appropriate, but I’m fairly sure I only remember it because I remember so much IYSWIM? And you’re going in to fix this for your DD so fast that if she remembers it at all 20 years on it’ll be for her parents swooping in to stand up for her when she needed them to. Yes.

*Others praising them is not (in most cases, there’ll be people who fish wildly) their fault, but it is part of the issue.

Have you had any luck with the school OP?

How is it going OP? Have you had chance to write a written compliant yet? Can we help with that?

I would not be happy with what you describe. At all.

My kids school had a ‘thing’ where girls in last year of primary had to assist with reception lunch duty on a roster basis*. But it was general supervision and assistance, not being responsible for a problematic SN child. It certainly didn’t involve toileting the children. They were also allocated a reception child they had to listen to and assist with reading twice a week. I think all of that is good, making kids into responsible citizens etc but is different to what you describe.

*Before anyone cries sexist over the girl thing, even the girls admitted the boys were rubbish with the reception kids and they felt they were more able (aka better ) so they were not unhappy about it.

Perhaps if the boys had actually had to deal with reception kids they would get better at it !

HoppingPavlova then because the boys were mostly rubbish at it, is the reason they should be participating fully and equally. I'm astonished at that being accepted as a cop out. It's like those girls were in training for 20 years later when we see all the Relationship posts where a DH isn't fully co-parenting their child and is using"well you're better at changing nappies" as a reason why they're a bad dad. Christ.

Knowing how to look after children is not some kind of genetic pre-disposition passed down on the X chromosome. Women and girls get lumped with these kinds of tasks, along with cooking and cleaning, because they are "better" at it.

The only reason they are "better" is because they have had more practice. The school should be actively working against this kind of lazy cop out, not encouraging it.

@Jammiebammie how are things ?

((((Hugs)))

HoppingPavlova then because the boys were mostly rubbish at it, is the reason they should be participating fully and equally. I'm astonished at that being accepted as a cop out. It's like those girls were in training for 20 years later when we see all the Relationship posts where a DH isn't fully co-parenting their child and is using"well you're better at changing nappies" as a reason why they're a bad dad. Christ.

I fully agree. The reality is though that a group of 12yo girls quickly figure out that if they are paired on duty with a boy then they are effectively doing the duty all by themselves or in some cases have even more work as they are managing the 12yo boy and reception children. The 12yo girls can't MAKE the boys be useful or good at it, they have no authority in this regard. The supervising teacher CAN make the boy do something however when it's cocked up or they are useless at it they can't really enforce a punishment. Can you imagine the parental outrage if a boy is punished as he is useless at looking after reception children even though he has actually done the task asked of him. It's not a workplace, there is no performance management system available for students supervising reception children at lunch ffs.

So the girls preference is 2 girls believing it halves the load. Of course this leads into a lifetime of useless men, we all know that, but try telling that to 12yo girls who just want their life made easier in the immediate here and now when supervising reception children at lunch now and again.

Hi everyone, aw I’m so sorry I’ve been rubbish at keeping this updated!!

We got home from hospital a couple days ago but still lots going on, I had a phone meeting with the school yesterday as I couldn’t manage to get in.

I spoke to the depute, and was on the phone for a good hour. Apparently this was meant to be a ‘buddy’ system, but she agreed it went too far and a lot of this should never had been allowed. She said it was on a volunteer basis to help the p7s feel more grown up, but said that she has raised some issues over this herself and they’re going to be doing a ‘full investigation’ and the scheme has now been stopped.
She couldn’t apologise enough, but I do get the feeling she was trying to pass blame a lot. This new system was started but one of the sn coordinators, who is actually the one who helps my youngest the most. She’s been the most wonderful person and now I’m worried she is being the scapegoat for this! I do feel that I was a bit cornered on the phone and I’m left feeling guilty, how is that even possible ?! The depute admitted she didn’t have all the answers, I’m going in on Monday morning to discuss this further, I mentioned safe guarding after dd was kicked and spit at, and I asked if the boys parents (and the parents of the other children being ‘minded’) and she said she couldn’t give me information about another child, I reiterated I’m not asking for information about the child but these are valid points that need addressing.

Sorry it’s really not the best update, I think my defences are down due to everything else just now, I’m exhausted and really wasn’t as prepared as I thought when we spoke yesterday, so I feel like I’m actually letting dd down now.

Didn’t expect the depute agreeing or blaming the sn coordinator, but I also don’t feel I have any more answers now than I did before.

Hope your DDs are ok and you certainly aren't letting anyone down.
The school now know your concerns and your DD no longer has to look after any other pupils. You got a great result and looked after your DD's interests. The rest is just making sure it doesn't happen again

If you hadn’t raised it, this would still be going on. You are the reason the initiative has stopped and you should be proud of that. Just because the school are now playing pass the buck doesn’t mean you should feel guilty. They’re doing that because they know how unreasonable/dangerous it was and individually want the blame to land on someone else’s shoulders.
What you need from your next meeting is the assurance that your daughter will not be used for childcare or to be the solo support for a child ever again. If you’re feeling community minded I’d also ask for reassurance that they are able to look after the needs of children with SN without resorting to using children. If they have plans for the scheme to continue without your daughter I’d demand they formally inform the whole year groups parents, including those with the SN. Or I would inform them.
Hope you and your family are ok OP. You’ve been really strong at a difficult time. Don’t let anyone sway you to believe this was all for the good of the children - if that were true they would have the children supporting the SN children alongside a responsible adult, not instead of them. And they would have informed the parents of both, which they very obviously haven’t.
They can’t tell you if that specific child’s parents were informed but it’s not breaking confidentiality to state if it’s policy that the parents of the children with SN were informed of this scheme. I’d put money on it that they were completely unaware.

Buck passing is unfair but not your problem, your concern has to be your family and stopping your child from being used inappropriately by the school. If it was the Senco’s idea- and it might well have been - then the leadership group should have been aware of what was happening and therefore have either condoned it or turned a blind eye, neither of these makes them look good. You can bet also that if you had rung up to praise the scheme the dh would have been very happy to bask in the credit!

I think I'd be trying to tell the parents of the Boy myself. I doubt they know.

Massive ((((((((((Madd Hugs))))))) for you and your DD and your family. This affects all of you, plus the Hospital stay. Oi
💐🌼🌻💐🌺🌼🌸💐

Ex-teacher here. I once had a year 5 class with a girl with DS. We asked if anyone would like to buddy with her at lunch times and got a few responses. We then wrote to the parents and got their permission. It was made very clear to the children that this was entirely voluntary and they could stop at any point. This girl also had a TA with her so there was no caring involved, just playing which was all we wanted as she had become so used to adult care and never really played with other kids. I did joke with the buddies that it would look good on their ucas forms (then had to explain what ucas is).
What your daughter's school is doing is the very opposite of the buddy system. I've been out of teaching for a number of years and don't know the Scottish system so I can't offer advice, much as I'd wish to, I just wanted to add another teacher voice about how wrong this is.