Accused of being racist

[Montagu90]

Hi all

I have NC and don't want a potential flaming tarnishing my TTC posts!

Had an upsetting run in today that has made me have a long hard look at some assumptions I made and question whether I was in fact, being racist.

I don't consider myself in anyway racist and am not one of those 'I'm not racist but...' people. However, please tell me if in the below scenario IWBU

DH and I are avid foodies and like to try foods from various parts of the world. We really enjoy Asian, Thai, Vietnamese food but although love Indian food, we can never seem to master it at home. Over Christmas I attempted my fourth Biryani only to fall once again at the right balance and texture of rice.

So I decided this weekend to try once more. I went to a really good local greengrocers who happen to be run by an Indian couple and therefore have a good varied range of Indian spices and things I can usually never find (ghee for example). I picked up the ingredients for my recipe but noticed a few other customers had bought these packs to make up various Indian curries which have all the bits you need in them. So I picked up one of these too.

When I got to the till I asked the man whether they were any good. He replied they seem to be popular but he hasn't tried them himself. I then laughed and said I've never quite managed the perfect Biryani and I don't suppose he has any tips for the perfect recipe? He got visibly cross and said 'why, just because I'm Indian I must know how to cook a good curry?' I stuttered and apologised if I'd caused any offence, I was just genuinely asking if he could offer me any assistance... he then said he didn't go around asking every white person how to make gravy and I should consider what I say before making such racist comments.

I got out of there quite quickly but just felt awful. I've since wondered why I asked him... the fact that he ran a shop which had a specialist section on Indian food was certainly part of it. However, if the shop had been run by a white man, I don't think I would have asked.

So I did make an assumption based on his perceived culture. But I see this as no different to asking my Welsh friend for their best Rarebit recipe (which she happily gave me). I definitely wouldn't have stopped a random man in the street so where he was working definitely had something to do with it.

I am now sitting at home feeling awful that someone thinks of me this way when all I wanted was to make a nice Saturday night meal.

So WIBU?

Presumably the shop also sells wine or snacks or stock. Would you have asked him how to make a specific meal from any other non-Indian spice he sold?

or she thinks he is

RTFT.
The OP has spoken to his wife. They are Indian and have been in the U.K. for 10 years.

kirinm read the thread properly. Also, she didn’t demand that he must know anything. It was a simple, can you offer advice based on a pretty reasonable assumption. Like I said, if people ask a Polynesian how to lay a hangi, it’s an awesome opportunity to share culture, or to simply say, hey I actually don’t know/ am not Māori as it happens... it’s really NOT a big deal at all.

This is how we create societies where nobody interacts with people different to themselves, by seeking out reasons to be offended.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

By that rational, the statement "all black man have big penises" is not prejudicial, discriminatory or antagonistic. So that statement is okay because in our warped culture that's a good thing?

I see nothing wrong in going to a shop to buy ingredients and asking the proprietor of that shop for advice on how to cook them.

Me either. If only that was what the OP did. However, she didn't and that's what's confused me. I think the most telling thing here is that if the owner was white she wouldn't have asked the question. But at the same time, she knew his background. So asking for tips does seem okay. He clearly wasn't as familiar with her as she felt she was with him (via his wife).

But no matter how reasonable it seems it still stands she would not have asked him if he was white.

Just as an aside Levi Roots' jerk sauce is awful and unauthentic. I'd ask Jamie Oliver over him about Jerk. I really would.

My partner is from India and we don’t think this was racist. She asked in good faith and he could have responded without calling her a racist which is quite a slur.
We work in retail and lots of people make assumptions all the time-for instance they think that the younger guy who works for me is my boss- but I don’t go storming over to them saying ‘how dare you! that’s so sexist!’

But no matter how reasonable it seems it still stands she would not have asked him if he was white No, she wouldn’t have asked if she hadn’t known he was Indian. It’s ok to make assumptions based on race, like asking about culture including food, as long as they aren’t used to imply inferiority or result in some kind of prejudice.

It’s ok to make assumptions based on race, like asking about culture including food, as long as they aren’t used to imply inferiority or result in some kind of prejudice

Says who? Who knows / judges what is inferior / prejudice? You cannot tell someone's culture by their race, ethnicity or even country of birth. What and how people do / act with friends cannot and should not be applied to society.

To the OP and others. The man felt a certain way about it and challenged you. It doesn't mean you are racist but if people continue to do things some people find offensive then it will reflect poorly. Nobody needs to answer anybody's questions because someone feels entitled to it.

When I got to the till I asked the man whether they were any good. He replied they seem to be popular but he hasn't tried them himself. I then laughed

I don't see why you'd laugh at his not-particularly-amusing response to your question? Then again, maybe the element of humour that I assume must have been present at the time (given that you laughed) has been lost in typing.

The randomness of "I then laughed" just reminds me of "I snapped and farted". Sorry!

An Indian man... working in an Indian shop... selling Indian food... is offended when you ask for cooking tips wow. At this rate people will be keeping silent in public for fear of offending anyone. FWIW I am Indian.

Just been to the wine shop. I asked for recommendations for a good Merlot as I don't drink red wine. I was answered professionally, succinctly and clearly - and wasn't told off for making assumptions the bloke drank wine. (Relief)

Tralalaa you are a fucking idiot. That's exactly the sort of question you ask a waitress. It's your responsibility to know the answer. In decent restaurants they recommend dishes and have tried them for exactly that reason

English people who believe they’ve every right to ask a ‘native’ a sensible question about their heritage

Isn't this assuming a bit too much about their intentions though? There'll always be the occasional tosser who feels the empire never died, but it seems a shame to take such a negative view, when actually most were probably just trying to learn - sometimes clumsily perhaps, but not through any bad motive

Sorry but random non white strangers / people you know don't purely exist for "learning" moments.

Not 'random' in a shop.

I ask my butcher about different cuts of meat.
I ask in a wine shop about different wines.
I ask in a phone shop about different phones.

In a food shop I ask about food.

It's called customer service, lots of shops have little signs that say "please ask" because they want you to ask about the products they sell. In other shops people who work there say "can I help you?".

Asking for help in a shop is not approaching a random person for a learning opportunity- it is hoping for customer service. Something the OP didn't get!

random non white strangers / people you know don't purely exist for "learning" moments

Nobody's suggesting they do, jenny ...

Nobody needs to answer anybody's questions because someone feels entitled to it.

That’s such a stupid over reaction! She didn’t feel ‘entitled’. She asked a question based on a fair and reasonable assumption- actually knowledge in this case since she knew his wife.

Who decides? Well we can all decide how we want to react individually. I can only say that my family don’t react so aggressively when asked about our culture. We love questions and interest. Shame others look for a reason to think the worst.

I'm really looking forward to the impending biryani recipe. I too have struggled finding one I really like..

Radical - no need to wait, just ask an Asian man

ask my butcher about different cuts of meat
I ask in a wine shop about different wines
I ask in a phone shop about different phones

These are nothing to do with race and clearly appropriate.

That’s such a stupid over reaction! She didn’t feel ‘entitled’. She asked a question based on a fair and reasonable assumption- actually knowledge in this case since she knew his wife

No. What's unreasonable is policing what people's reactions should be and the notions you can ask questions based on race or suggest that people are aggressive if they don't answer.

Nobody's suggesting they do, jenny ...

Yes they did, they suggested that asking most where propbablu just trying to learn.

I wouldn't go back there if I were you. You were NBU and he was being ridiculous. Assuming an Indian in an Indian shop has tips about cooking Indian food is hardly racist. Fucking hell. If you went to a Danish shop, where a Dane was behind the counter and you wanted to know if it was normal to e.g. Use ryebread for smørrebrød (our traditional food) then the person would happily tell you yes.

Reminds me of the time I was in a cab in the UK and the Asian cab driver went on and on about how racist the UK is. Absolute unprofessional and overly sensitive whingy tool. Some people just want to be play the victim game.

What's unreasonable is policing what people's reactions should be and the notions you can ask questions based on race or suggest that people are aggressive if they don't answer

Someone was accused of racism. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to discuss that. It’s not ‘policing’, it’s responding to his accusations. It’s called a discussion. He didn’t ‘not answer’, he made an accusation. And most on this thread think it is ridiculous, including other Indian people and people of colour. This literally happens to me and my family about our culture, all the time. It’s perfectly valid for everyone here to discuss what racism looks like. Just because someone is a person of colour, does not mean they should be exempt from criticism. The suggestion is insulting actually.

Nobodys suggesting they did

That’s specifically responding to your statement that people think ‘non white people exist purely for learning moments. That’s a total misrepresentation of what is being said and NOBODY MADE THAT SUGGESTION. We can all learn from each other about our cultures and that should be a positive thing. That doesn’t translate to: that’s all they exist for. How disingenuous to twist what’s being said that way.

Not racist at all. He was rude. Plus, you hadn't automatically stereotyped him as 'male so assume he won't have prepared food'.

deficient
We disagree, however what you've stated isn't discussion but an ascertion that you can ask questions based on race. What you are happy and comfortable with does not mean that everyone else must be or that is the right thing.

If you read my posts you would see that it was referring wider than to the OPs experience. People learning from each other is not a reason to demand / request questions are answered based on race point blank period.

This is interesting. Nothing wrong with asking him about the spices pack because the shop is selling those. Asking about the biryani is going a step further. One of my first quick thoughts on reading this was “oh, I bet he was annoyed because it’s his wife, not him that does the cooking” - then I thought oh no! Isn’t that a racist assumption? That it would be the woman not an Asian man who had the recipes,. Then I thought, well would I have had the same thought if a white man had acted similarly, and I think I would. Women tend to do most of the cooking still. But I still made an assumption based on race and sex stereotypes.
Anyway, that’s an aside. But I think we can fall into these traps without thinking, which is good, because next time round we know better. But I do think the guy in the shop was being rude. If I was in a mainstream supermarket and buying something to cook which I had not done before, I might well ask at checkout if they had any tips - the M&S and Sainsburys where I am obviously have a ‘chat to customers’ policy. I have been asked, for example how to cook Jerusalem artichokes by a cashier. So, if I were cooking something different or something that Aid never had success with, yes I would ask for tips if the cashier was friendly.
Maybe the guy was simply fed up with white people coming in and asking how to cook this, or that?

¥¥¥¥ RECIPE ¥¥¥
Brown three chopped onions in oil.
Add tomato purée from a tube.
Turmeric
Salt
Chilli powder
Cumin powder
Coriander powder
I add biriyani masala my mil made
It's whole spices roasted and ground
(Cinnamon black pepper star aniseed clove cardamom bay leaf white pepper)
Ginger paste
Garlic paste
2 tblspn water or stock
Let it all cook with lid off
Mix occasionally to prevent sticking
After 10 minutes add chicken
Cook chicken (boneless or cut into small pieces)
This is all done with lid off to dry out the sauce
No one likes a soggy biriyani
Cook this till the masala starts to stick to the chicken
Take off the heat
Wash rice three times in cold water
Soak it in warm water for 5 minutes
Now this is the part where you need to concentrate
Cook the rice till it is just half cooked
It should still be a bit tough in the middle of the grain
Now rinse it quickly in a strainer without too much movement or water pressure
Let all the water leave the strainer
Rice should be separate grains at this stage
Now grease an oven proof pan (tall enough to hold all the rice n chicken)
Sprinkle some water on the bottom of the pan
Add a layer of rice
Now a layer of chicken
Repeat till u have used both bits
Top layer can be either
Decorate with chopped peppers peas sweet corn
Sprinkle some water
Cover tightly with foil but poke a hole in the middle with a cocktail stick
Oven cook this for 30 minutes
Take foil off but don't bin it yet
let the steam out
Rice should now be done to perfection
Now the interesting bit
Get a small metal dish that will fit in the middle of the pan
Add a piece of hot coal
Cover this hot coal with a bit of oil or ghee
Quickly cover with foil as it smokes the biriyani
Your biriyani will taste amazing
Enjoy !