Daughter kicked off bus aibu

[user1471461798]

Just wondered what everyone’s thoughts on this was? 17 year old daughter dropped off at the bus stop at 6.44 this morning, she had lost her lanyard with her bus pass on, so was going into college to get a temporary pass, we knew it was at home somewhere. Got on, sat down, the bus driver then asked to see everyone’s pass.. Doesn’t do this every day- specific bus only for her college.( 1st stop in the morning, last stop at night). obviously she didn’t have it, explained and he told her to get off the bus, she asked if she could just go to college and get a temporary pass. ( I know this is true as her friend told her mother the same ).

She then had to walk over a mile in the dark and rain, We had all left for work. also she has a broken arm, so had to carry bags as well. We have asked for an explanation from both the bus company and college, no reply from coach, but college have said the driver was correct!
I feel the coach company had a duty of care to make sure she was safe. What is everyone’s thoughts please?
Maybe a while getting back to everyone, going to the cinema now😊

You cannot possibly assume that he knows this by osmosis or that the pass has the date inscribed on it, because that would mean a new pass every single month.

If there is no new pass issued every month, tell me what is the point of checking the passes, FrancisCrawford. What does checking accomplish?

"in the specific month of January this driver could have assumed that a pass that was shown him a few days previously was good for a month. Because why would the month include the Christmas holiday?" [Math]
FC: come On.
OP states it is a monthly pass. That means it lasts one calendar month.
So if her DD travelled in December, then her pass will include the whole month of December, which includes Xmas holidays. It’s nonsense to suggest otherwise because bus passes don’t work like that.

You have misunderstood me.
The point of my remark being that a pass bought in mid December would have included the Christmas holiday, in response to your remark about school starting during September and therefore the 'month' running over into October, and your suggestion that passes could be bought mid month, so the DD's might have expired mid-January..

The OP states that she bought the pass in advance for the month, and I think you should accept that this means she bought it at the beginning of the month for travel all month. I also urge you to engage your common sense wrt the possibility that all passes are bought at the beginning of the month, given that all the passengers are at the same 6th form college, with the same schedule of school days and holidays.

Gy
Age, sex, time of day, what the driver did yesterday or will do tomorrow are all irrelevant.
How far the passenger has to walk home or to the destination, irrelevant.
No, these are all relevant.
The point being that a young woman was set down to walk a distance unknown to the driver, on roads whose conditions were unknown to the driver, in the dark, in the rain, when he knew she had a broken arm, was laden with bags, and knew also that he had examined her lanyard that constituted proof of payment for the month only a couple of days previously.
You don't want to accept that a young woman walking alone in the dark in a rural area might be either run over by a car or attacked by a rapist, a massive failure of common sense on your part. Hopefully, this will never affect your own health or safety.

(Imaginary knife wielding boy otoh, irrelevant).

Godwin's law - relevant.
Maybe you don't understand what I am referring to the phrase 'I was only following orders'?

The only other relevant fact I see is the college policy and the transport operators policy. Which is unclear, and it seems they each didn't know the others policy.
What you choose not to see - or maybe you can't see - is that they fully understand the implications of the OP's complaint and are covering their arses in their responses to her, with their waffle about not knowing the other's policy. Neither of them wants to admit any responsibility for failing to train their drivers about passenger safety, for failing to tell their drivers what the lanyard means, for failing to create a system where the standing of a passenger can easily be checked, a lack of communication between the two parties that is ludicrous given that one party carries passengers an done administers the payment system for transport, and which could easily have resulted in death or injury of the OP's DD.

Your message is loud and clear though your imaginary attacker could have existed and mine simply could not have. Your imaginary attacker is a relevant part of this conversation. I've just taken a flight of fancy.

Precisely.
Because no boy was mentioned by the OP on this thread, no knife, no blood and guts on the bus. The boy was a figment of your imagination, introduced here by you to illustrate the need for the lanyard. You keep on harping on about his relevance despite the fact that possession of a lanyard wouldn't preclude possession of a knife or homicidal intent.

Otoh, a young woman with a broken arm laden with bags was set down to walk a distance unknown to the driver on roads whose suitability for walking along was unknown to the driver, in the dark, in the rain. All real - and the obvious conclusion to draw from all of that is that this young woman was placed in a situation that could have been dangerous, this conclusion being informed by posters' experience of and knowledge of reality.

I know exactly what you mean by "I was only following orders"

You have compared a man doing his job to the Nazi party, but I Am l still the one that went too far?

this conclusion being informed by posters' experience of and knowledge of reality.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I live in London. Attacks on public transport are commonplace. There's my experiences and knowledge of reality.

No I haven't compared him to a member of the Nazi party, Gy. Here is my post.
To suggest that nobody has any responsibility to anyone else, that nobody has any agency, that nobody should engage common sense or act out of concern for the welfare of anyone else, that doggedly sticking to the rules is any justification for abdication of the moral requirement of common decency of one human being towards another is to stray into the territory of 'I was only following orders'.
Your misreading is becoming tiresome.
(You have contradicted yourself though, on the question of the relevance of Godwin's law. Please try to keep track.)

Glad to hear you know something of reality. I was a little worried that you might attempt a stroll on a country road with no footpaths before dawn on a rainy morning. Maybe carrying a heavy knapsack.

You invoked Godwin's law you exactly compared the driver to the Nazi's.

*You have contradicted yourself though, on the question of the relevance of Godwin's law. Please try to keep track

Where?

I was a little worried that you might attempt a stroll on a country road with no footpaths before dawn on a rainy morning. Maybe carrying a heavy knapsack.

Why wouldn't I? Rain won't kill me, I can hear and see traffic and my eyes adjust to the dark.

Just out of curiosity. Why is your rapist walking down this rural road at 6:15 in the rain. Where does this feature in your reality?

GySgtHartman

You have to remember that the only points that are relevant are those from Math, any others no matter how much they reflect her points are not worth talking about.

I live in central London too; I was born here. I’ve used public transport all my life and commute every day. It’s busy, nobody knows each other but I’ve often seen bus drivers turn a blind eye and let someone on when they’ve forgotten their Oyster card or not got enough money on it. In fact it’s happened to me once or twice. They wouldn’t let someone take the piss but a genuine mistake, they would use their judgement. A young girl with heavy bags and a broken arm would not be punished in front of other passengers ‘to prove a point.’ So why do it on a bus with 4 kids who the driver sees EVERY DAY. Even IF the dd’s pass was out if date, he could just remind her to update it for next time?!? Why punish her?

Incidentally in my 47 years of life in London I have never witnessed a stabbing on a bus. It’s not even in the local papers much. Kindness of drivers to passengers however is a daily occurrance.

No I did not compare him to the Nazis Gy.
I asserted that the attitude of those excusing or justifying the behaviour of the driver and claiming that all that matters is the rules are straying into the same territory as those justifying their conduct by saying they were only following orders.
What a pity you can't identify the subject of a sentence.

You said Godwin's law wasn't relevant and went on to get all huffy about me allegedly accusing the driver of being like the Nazis (*see explanation on that score). So yes, a contradiction.
well done on invoking Godwins law earlier, but also irrelevant too.

Rain won't kill me, I can hear and see traffic and my eyes adjust to the dark.
Amazing that you might see a speeding car coming around a bend in time to jump aside. Do you walk much in rural or even semi rural areas with no footpaths on weekdays when there may be commuter traffic? I suspect you do not, because clearly it doesn't occur to you that what matters is whether the speeding driver sees you, not the other way round. Maybe you don't drive? If you drive in the rain in the dark the glare of oncoming vehicles' lights can greatly hamper your view of everything else on the road.

Just out of curiosity. Why is your rapist walking down this rural road at 6:15 in the rain. Where does this feature in your reality?
The rapist could have been in a car or a van. Where did I say he had to be a pedestrian?
If you think no young woman has ever been trailed by a leering or catcalling driver or someone with rape in mind in a lonely spot and with no witnesses around, think again. Lucky you if you have never had an experience like this. Plenty of young women have. Hence the suggestion that you engage your faculty of common sense.

Are you suggesting that rape is a remote possibility that no woman should ever worry about? You seem ever so blase and dismissive about the possibility.

Perhaps you would like to explain the relevance of the knife wielding boy, Boney. As I said, I am all ears - actually 'fascinated' wouldn't be too strong a word for what I am feeling at this point..

I give up, you win rules shouldn't apply to women in case they are attacked.

I hope the bus driver gets sent to prison for his part in the conspiracy to rape.

A noble surrender GySgtHartman you're on a losing battle and are finding more and more ridiculous things to say rather than just give in. He shouldn't have kicked her off the bus, in the circumstances that we are dealing with, it was totally unnecessary.

Well, it's hard to argue when you can imagine an RTI or a rape (even though they didn't happen) but any other scenario supporting the bus driver and the reason ms rules exist is simply discarded as "ridiculous"

Incidentally in my 47 years of life in London I have never witnessed a stabbing on a bus. It’s not even in the local papers much

I googled this there have been 5 incidents reported by the bbc, the sun and local news since November. That was just the first page.

I haven't witnessed a lot of things doesn't mean they didn't happen.

mathanxiety

the knife wielding boy is as relevant as your rapist.
neither are there. neither happened both are scenarios of what could happen.

But apparently your "what if" is more relevant than anyone elses "what if".

YABU she isn't a small child. She needs to look after her possessions or if she cannot find lanyard then take money to pay for bus.

oh Boulty, Boulty, Boulty.
740 posts here.
do RTFT, there's a dear.

...it's hard to argue when you can imagine an RTI or a rape (even though they didn't happen) but any other scenario supporting the bus driver and the reason ms rules exist is simply discarded as "ridiculous"
Gy

Your knife wielding boy was a preposterous red herring.

The fact that an (imaginary) boy had a lanyard would not preclude him also having a knife and stabbing everyone on the bus. So that particular whacko reason for the driver to check lanyards is ruled out as just plain silly.

And it seems that the driver can't be all that concerned about knife wielders if he only bothers to check lanyards every so often, not daily (*not that checking a lanyard will make any difference if this mythical boy also has a knife...)

FrancisCrawford
As explained, there is no logic in assuming a pass that was valid d on say the 13th is still valid on the 14th. Nobody would ever suggest that all schools and colleges always begin the session on the first of the month, because that is patently nonsense

The bus is a dedicated service for the one sixth form agriculture college, FrancisCrawford.

There is no logical reason to include 'all schools and colleges' in your argument since there is only one college involved here and all the passengers on the bus are students there.

There is absolutely no reason for the school to do the admin of bus pass money at any time other than at the beginning of the month as all students in the sixth form college can reasonably be assumed to have the same school year, same holidays, same school days.

Again, use a modicum of common sense and realise that this myth of yours that all colleges start on the first of the month is just in your imagination. Reasonable people would buy a pass starting on the first day of college, so as not to waste money.
Yet another poorly conceived argument that does not disprove my contention that a bus pass that is valid on the 11th, 12th and 13th of January is also valid on the 14th and subsequent dates, since it would have - according to your theory - been bought on the day classes resumed after the Christmas break and it would be good for four weeks.

Tell me, what is a 'month'?
How is is measured if not according to the calendar in which there are 12 per year?
If the OP had meant that a pass is good for four weeks from date of purchase, would she not have used the term 'four weeks' instead of 'a month'?

Here is a little story to illustrate my point.
When my DCs attended a private school the cost was $3000 each per annum, split into 11 equal payments that were paid in advance and due on the first of each month.

The school year ran from the last week of August to the first week of June, giving approximately 11-12 weeks of summer holiday. There was a two week break in December-January and a week at Easter or some time at the end of March-beginning of April. In addition there were various days off for public holidays or teacher institute days.

Payments were not reduced for any month just because there were days off or half days or even longer breaks. Paying over 11 months mitigated cashflow problems for families and most parents paid this way even though the students were not in school for 11 solid months.

Since this is essentially a private bus service contracted by the college to ferry students, it is reasonable to assume there is a per capita cost for each student for every school year, divided into a certain number of equal payments that are due regardless of how many days in any given month the school is actually open for business. It is possible that some parents pay for the whole year in advance but I suspect that most pay per month, and by month I mean the increments of time that we call January, February, March, April, etc.

Words have specific meanings.

Mathanxiety: If there is no new pass issued every month, tell me what is the point of checking the passes, FrancisCrawford. What does checking accomplish?
FC : It really isn’t at all hard to work out, Math - it is the reason there are bus inspectors.
And this reason is to check all passengers have the necessary tickets/passes
Asking again, because if as you stated, new passes are not issued on a monthly basis, and instead the first one issued is used again each month, what information could the driver possibly see on a pass that would indicate to him that a student had paid for the current month? All a pass shows, if no new pass is issued, is that the first month of travel in the school year was paid for.

Boney

the knife wielding boy is as relevant as your rapist.
neither are there. neither happened both are scenarios of what could happen

Knife boy is completely irrelevant because knife wielding attackers on buses are rare as hens' teeth. A poster who regularly travels on buses in London has never encountered a single one, and a quick googling reveals only a handful.

A rapist otoh, in the rain, in the dark, on a rural road, with a young woman walking alone, with a broken arm and laden with bags - unless you are suggesting that young woman are rarely targeted by sexual predators while walking alone in the dark then it is a matter of common sense - and again some googling might help -.for you to realise that the scenario of a rapist is sadly far more likely.

I do hope you are not suggesting that young women are rarely targeted by sexual predators?

Maybe the whole #MeToo thing went completely over your head?
www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/oct/20/ive-been-followed-attacked-spat-on-women-on-feeling-scared-to-walk-alone

Minor point, I never said knife wielding, that was added by another poster. I said assaulted.

All I did was change the sex of the passenger and location of the attack. Although you seem to think a boy attacking another passenger on the bus is as ridiculous as a lion having a bus pass.

You accuse me of missing the nuance in other posts while missing any nuance in mine. ie in another scenario the driver using "kindness and common sense" will make the wrong decision. The result being the loss of his job.

And there were 5 assaulted reported in six weeks. Hardly as rare as "hens teeth" is it.
I was always under the impression that most women shaft were victims of sexual assault knew their attackers. I'm sure that the"dragged down a dark alley" or "dragged into the back of a van" assaults are rare. I think I've seen this l on mumsnet rape myth threads. Although I am willing to be educated on that.

I still stand by the statement that the perpetrators of crime are the only ones responsible. So I still fail to see how if she had been assaulted the driver would be responsible.

Like I said though. It's hard to argue with someone that has their own narrative and won't go left or right of arc.

Finally, if it's proven the driver did not follow the procedures laid down by his employer he should be disciplined.

GySgtHartman do you not think that the driver might be reprimanded for failing to get one of his FOUR pre-paid passengers to college? Is that not part of his job and his responsibilities or is it to just check lanyards and drive? He made a bad call.

TheLittleDogLaughed I think he should be if that's the procedure then yes. If not then no.

The first point I made on this thread was that the driver may have been more strict as there was an inspector due on. Or he'd been disciplined for his previous laxness.

So the boy gets onto the bus and assaults someone. How does checking his lanyard make this impossible?

Compared to the number of women assaulted, catcalled, trailed and jeered at and intimidated on a daily basis, yes knife attacks are rare as hens' teeth.

I refer you to the Guardian article I linked with women's accounts of encounters with men and boys.

The following might also cause you to look again at your piddling five knife attacks on buses in six weeks.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#cite_note-275
According to the charity Rape Crisis 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped each year in England and Wales, and only 15% of victims chose to report the crime to police

rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/rcew-statistics/
Rape Crisis England & Wales headline statistics 2017-18:
Rape Crisis Centres across our network responded to over 179,000 helpline calls during the year.
Rape Crisis specialist services were accessed by 78,461 individuals - an increase of 17% from 2016-17.
Rape Crisis Centres provided in excess of 650,000 sessions of specialist support, including advocacy, emotional support and counselling - an increase of 44% since 2016-17.
Three-quarters of all adult service users contacted Rape Crisis Centres about sexual violence that took place at least 12 months earlier. 42% were adult survivors of child sexual abuse.
The largest group that contact Rape Crisis Centres, over half of service users, are those who prefer to self-refer. This pattern has remained consistent over the past seven years and continues to demonstrate the necessity for funded independent services.
93 per cent of service users were female.
Where age is known, 3,236 were aged 15 or under, an increase of 22% on last year. Those aged under 25 represented 27% of service users.
Where ethnicity is known, 23% of service users identified as Black or Minority Ethnic.
29% of all service users identified as Disabled.
The Rape Crisis England & Wales website received over 12 million hits during the year - an increase of a third on 2016-17 - and an average of 46,850 unique visitors per month, a 43% rise from the previous year.

This is just England and Wales. Scotland and NI are not included in this organisation's numbers.