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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If there was another Brexit referendum would you vote the same way?

523 replies

marmeladerose · 14/01/2019 20:26

By the way I am not for another Brexit referendum but I am seeing a lot about it on the news/social media and it got be wondering what everyone would vote if it did happen and what did you vote before? I voted remain and would vote remain again.

OP posts:
Weetabixandshreddies · 15/01/2019 17:29

KennDodd
I'm not talking solely about MPs. I'm talking about economists and industry leaders. On every tv and radio programme in recent weeks where they are discussing this they have one expert for and one against.

They both make equally compelling arguments.

icannotremember · 15/01/2019 17:33

When remainers said what the negatives would be, we were told it was project fear and we were talking down Britain. Post referendum, explaining why why cannot accept Brexit leads to more accusations of project fear, talking down Britain, being a remoaner and being responsible for Brexit going badly by not saying nice things about it. If we don't say why we think Brexit would be a bad thing, that also annoys people- which is reasonable, I get irritated by leavers who can't make any sort of argument for why they think Brexit would be a good thing.

I don't think it's fair to say there was a lack of information. I thought the issue was important, I voted, and before I voted I did some research. The information was there, but people couldn't be bothered to look for it.

User758172 · 15/01/2019 17:34

The information was there, but people couldn't be bothered to look for it

How do you know they didn’t? Confused

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 17:38

Well this is a problem with the BBC trying to present a 'balanced' view. Until very recently they did the same with climate change, giving equal time to the change deniers, it was the same during the MMR, very, very, few experts on one side given equal weight and time to the vast majority of expert opinion on the other. This gives the impression to the public that professional opinion is split down the middle when it's not.

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 17:39

That was at @Weetabixandshreddies

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/01/2019 17:42

@KennDodd I'm not only talking about the BBC. All of the news programmes, radio stations etc have all been covering this and have all balanced the arguments.

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 17:45

Here's some links.
The second links explained the economists for Brexit positions. This involves removing mostl regulations , have a think about what this would mean and if you think it's really a good thing?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-economists-say-brexit-will-damage-economy-a6898886.html

www.economist.com/britain/2017/08/24/most-economists-say-brexit-will-hurt-the-economy-but-one-disagrees

ArchbishopOfBanterbury · 15/01/2019 17:48

I voted remain and would do the same again. Hopefully in a second referendum more people would agree with me ;)

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 17:49

@Weetabixandshreddies

Yes, and they did the same with the MMR. Even after 911, news organisations in the UK went scouring the streets trying to find anybody who supported the attack. I remember a news report at the time interviewing a bunch of kids (and they were kids) on the street who were saying Yay! Islam! They seemed desperate to try to put another side.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/01/2019 17:51

Well clearly then they should have had us all sit a formal exam before deciding who could vote on the issue shouldn't they?

Or better still have studied economics plus international law to degree level

LakieLady · 15/01/2019 17:51

*There may well have been mention of it, if you knew where to look but it certainly was not a main point in the campaign. Was it in the expensive pamphlet sent to every house, pointing out the whole issue would boil down to this border?

This was a referendum of the general public not a debate at the LSE. Millions of people are functionally illiterate. No one could honestly expect these people to go and do hours of research into the finer points of EU law?*

That's one of the strongest arguments against referenda. But it begs the question: should the people be allowed to vote on anything? That old elitist Bagehot was firmly of the opinion that the "ignorant multitude"* could not be trusted to make legislative decisions.

It's not the role of parliament to educate people and the power and partisan nature of the media would make it almost impossible. The Sun, the Mail, the Express could well have reported the complications around the NI border/GFA and Brexit in the way that the Guardian did, then more people might have been aware. But it seems they chose not to, and we can draw our own conclusions as to why.

Given that almost every statement in favour of remaining in the EU, whether it came from Stephen Hawking or the governor of the BoE, was dismissed as Project Fear. In the febrile atmosphere that prevailed at the time, I don't think people would have believed the complexity of the NI border issue had they had it explained to them in words of one syllable, with a map and a flowchart.

*Bagehot's expression, not mine!

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 17:53

Even the governments own reports say Brexit will be bad.

Here's a link about the damage it will do to science as well, letter signed by 35 Nobel prize winning scientists.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/01/2019 17:57

LakieLady

Yes it absolutely is parliament's role to educate in situations like this. It's a complex matter that you simply cannot expect enough of the public to understand well enough to make such a decision.

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 18:00

Also there was very much an anti expert agenda from the Leave campaign (wonder why?). They just scream project fear instead of providing any real counter argument.

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 18:02

Yes it absolutely is parliament's role to educate in situations like this

One think that has become clear to me is that lots of the politicians campaigning for Brexit didn't even understand how complex it was themselves, many of them have since admitted as much.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/01/2019 18:04

www.economistsforfreetrade.com/Media/city-a-m-this-group-of-pro-brexit-economists-says-leaving-the-eu-will-add-135bn-to-economy/

And you can carry on listing scientists etc who want to remain but then they have a vested interest in protecting their jobs and grants.

You are finding experts to support your stance. Leavers will find the same to support theirs.

LakieLady · 15/01/2019 18:10

Yes it absolutely is parliament's role to educate in situations like this. It's a complex matter that you simply cannot expect enough of the public to understand well enough to make such a decision.

I think it would be the start of a slippery slope if parliament started taking responsibility for the political education of the populace. It would certainly be something that could easily be abused by an unscrupulous government.

I think that that is the role of the Fourth Estate, and part of the reason we have a population that is poorly educated in politics and critical thinking is because the Fourth Estate is largely controlled by vested and partisan interests.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/01/2019 18:13

Then you have to accept results like the one we see now.

The raw information is simply inaccessible to many voters and it is just unrealistic to believe that they were able to conduct the necessary research. Of course many sought information from sources that reflected their views - on both sides.

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 18:14

Yes, but experts supporting Brexit are a tiny minority. Like I said, what do I know about economics, if 90% say one thing, well, I'll just go with them. Lots of the experts are abroad as well so take an outside view. Also I believe every major economic institution says Brexit is bad for the economy. This is places like the CBI and the IMF.

KennDodd · 15/01/2019 18:18

The raw information is simply inaccessible to many voters and it is just unrealistic to believe that they were able to conduct the necessary research. Of course many sought information from sources that reflected their views - on both sides.

Absolutely. I know that confirmation bias exists and that I will be as susceptible to it as anybody else. One reason to go with majority expert opinion on a subject I know nothing about.

Besides, most people I know who voted leave didn't give a shit about the economy, this was about something else for them.

LakieLady · 15/01/2019 18:22

The raw information is simply inaccessible to many voters and it is just unrealistic to believe that they were able to conduct the necessary research. Of course many sought information from sources that reflected their views - on both sides.

The raw information is easier to access than ever before, thanks to the internet. Even lifelong Guardian readers like me can now read the Mail and Express to see what the enemy is thinking. Wink

And most people are happy to only read/watch/listen to that which confirms their bias. They don't want to question stuff, but they were happy to decide what is possibly the biggest issue to face the country since the war.

Who said people get the government they deserve? De Tocqueville? Anyway, he was right and we have. Even those of us who didn't vote for them.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/01/2019 18:26

They don't want to question stuff, but they were happy to decide what is possibly the biggest issue to face the country since the war.
What choice did we have though? Vote or don't vote.

There's another thread running where people admit they didn't vote because they didn't understand or couldn't decide and they are being rounded on for not caring enough to even participate.

LakieLady · 15/01/2019 18:39

That's a very good question, Weetabix, and I'm afraid I don't have an answer. I'm not even sure I have an opinion, which is very rare for me! Grin

I'll have to give it some thought.

I'd be interested to know what others think though: which is worse? To vote when you don't have a clue what you're voting for, or not to vote because you don't have a clue?

jasjas1973 · 15/01/2019 19:00

You are finding experts to support your stance. Leavers will find the same to support theirs

Go on then! you'll find Mitford and thats about all and he wants to destroy manufacturing as a price worth paying!