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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the uk is a hostile environment for the natives aswell as for immigrants nowadays?

445 replies

malificent7 · 08/01/2019 20:03

Well the government have succeeded in one thing; making the uk a hostile place to live for most people what with cuts. Brexit etc. Is it just me or do things feel... tense?

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/01/2019 10:45

Maybe its not people moaning silvery has a problem with and thinks they should leave the country

Maybe its just certain people moaning about certain things who should leave

I'd be interested in a clarification before i book my FIL a ticket to elsewhere

Otherpeoplesteens · 09/01/2019 10:46

Although we say that the legitimacy of governments comes from a democratic electoral mandate, I don't believe it. I believe it comes from a government delivering ever-increasing standards of living. In somewhere like China, you can overlook the lack of democracy if your parents grew up fearing famine and you know that your children will never go hungry.

Here in the UK, we've got used to the idea that everything is getting better all the time. Unfortunately, for a substantial proportion of the population this had little connection with individuals' own productivity, but was the result of wealth redistribution. What has changed enormously in the last two or three decades is expectation and the cost of meeting it: in the 80's a Ford Sierra was seen as a big expensive car and McDonalds was a treat for the kids. Now, a BMW 3-series and eating out at a decent restaurant once a week mark you down as distinctly average.

The ability of government to allow everyone to enjoy at least some of those expectations has reached the end-point. It simply cannot be done at a level of taxation that the public is prepared to support, or at the level of public borrowing that gilts buyers are prepared to support so the can cannot be kicked down the road any longer. With public finances stretched to the absolute limit something has to give; "cuts" are the inevitable consequence.

At the same time, with no wriggle room left in public finances for a rainy day the slightest shock causes a full-on crisis. We saw it in 2008, and we're seeing it again with Brexit. Heaven forbid what happens with AI, automation, and the rest putting half the worforce out of work.

The hostility comes from proportioning blame for the dawning reality that for years as a nation we have lived far beyond our means. Foreigners and foreign influences are an easy target, always have been, but the evidence doesn't back it up. It is the average man in the street who been complicit in the lie that the nation can still afford an unfunded state pension scheme, an unlimited NHS, various in-work benefits, housing for poor people in some of the most expensive real estate in the world and so on, at a price that we're prepared to pay in tax.

Attempts to privatise state spending - for example by expecting rail users to pay for the cost of the railways, or for university students to pay most of the cost of their education - are still being resisted.

It's not hostility towards natives by design, in my opinion (I'm foreign too, but that's a different matter). But the day of reckoning about the standards of living we can afford is getting closer, and the febrile atmosphere is because nobody wants to admit it.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 09/01/2019 10:52

Don’t know about hostile, but it’s definitely a more unpleasant environment than a decade or so ago.

longwayoff · 09/01/2019 10:58

I imagine that it feels similar to the period of the 'phoney war' 1939-40 when everyone knew war had been declared but there was little physical evidence of it here other than conscription, defence preparations etc. There's a definite feeling that things can get a lot worse and look, we've got our very own home grown fascists screaming in the face of an elected woman MP while police look on. Straight from the Blackshirt handbook.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/01/2019 10:59

I agree chardonnay

I dont think hostile was exactly the right word but i agreed with the basic premise of the OP

Chewinggumwalk · 09/01/2019 11:01

These things are all relative.

In the context of lots of other countries? YABU.

In the context of how the UK should be? YANBU.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 09/01/2019 19:08

Chardonnay, I'd say even 2015. I was sure back then, esp after the Olympics buzz, that we were a tolerant and proudly diverse country. We showed that to the world with huge aplomb! The world loved it. A year later and we've unleashed the worst in the country and the complete opposite side of the country is left to face the world. 48% of our country have been ignored for 2 years and called citizens of nowhere. So pp telling me to leave doesn't surprise me at all. These people don't want a diverse country, they want little England. We have wasted so much on this fiasco that could have been used to further research or education. We've now lost more through the falling FTSE since the Brexit vote than we have paid into the EU in the whole 45 years! Imagine what we could haveused thst money for; recycling advances, better roads, education, NHS. We're down a wormhole of expenses and we've not even left yet.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 09/01/2019 19:45

I think it started earlier, Lonely, but that's just my opinion, so of course your experience will be different.

As a "forriner" I noticed throughout the years the attitude towards me to be curiosity, then acceptance, then a bit of hostility, very limited to some people but quite strong when shown, then a bit of a tired acceptance again. Now I can't be arsed what people think, but it seems my own view has changed and I don't feel at ease.

I still won't call it hostile, and I hope it won't ever comes to that.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 09/01/2019 19:47

It true though, the 2012 Olympics were a watershed of sorts.

HowardSpring · 09/01/2019 20:45

BeanTownNancy

But now you propose a mild political view one way or the other and you're suddenly dumped on a "side" and loaded up with hurtful stereotypes that don't apply to you at all.

You are right . Your post was spot on - it is getting impossible to debate anything.

Knittink · 09/01/2019 20:50

If I watch the news and social media it all feels pretty grim atm. In real life though, not at all tbh. And I agree with other posters - we are still very very lucky to live in a comparatively very wealthy, safe, democratic country.

HowardSpring · 09/01/2019 21:06

Actually in real life I do see a difference.

I have been burgled twice in the last two years. Police do nothing. I was attacked in my car by two men - I called 9999 and the police came but no hope of cathing them. I have been threatened in a way I never was before. The increase in crime is real - people I know - but often it's barely worth reporting.

Aggression - over car parking spaces, seats on the tube, neighbour noise - all much worse than I remember.

Lack of consideration for others - noise, eating food on the train, loud conversations, rudeness, entitlement, litter. It is uncomfortable.

And I agree with Otherpeoplesteens who makes some excellent points.
We expect so much and don't want to pay - so we fight over the scraps.

Dutch1e · 09/01/2019 21:39

YANBU, I felt the atmosphere change too.

I'm a migrant that can 'pass' as native if no-one listens too carefully to my accent. I've lived in 8 countries and the UK was definitely the most difficult despite having lots of lovely attributes. We lived there for a year during which the Brexit referendum was held and I was glad to leave when my contract was up. It was almost as if permission had been given for all kinds of meanness to be openly dished out.

(To be fair my husband is also a foreigner and he loved England, so two opposing viewpoints may cancel each other out).

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 09/01/2019 22:16

But now you propose a mild political view one way or the other and you're suddenly dumped on a "side

Absolutely!!

I don't really see this in real life but its very much on here and in the media

Pisses me right off

Poster 1....i dont agree with tory education policy

Poster 2....labour will be much much worse, typical of you bleeding heart lefties!!!!!

Poster 1....😧

ElonMask · 09/01/2019 22:33

Mass immigration has totally changed the face of parts of the country, particularly in Yorkshire and the north. It's slightly different in cities but the harmonious dream of different races and religions living cheek by joule has not materialised. Census data shows this balkanisation. Of course next up is the desire for "traditional" laws and councils.

Now we have a lot of imported problems, who would really want to go and live in Savile for example ? If you had stood as a candidate in 1980 and said by 2050 we aim to have at least 15 million Muslims in the UK, everyone knows that no one would have voted for you..it's the same or worse across Europe. Again who really would want to move to area where 80 - 90% of the population is Muslim ?

The attitudes of many British Muslims (50% think homosexuality should be made illegal) is shocking. Discuss at your peril because it makes you a racist.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 09/01/2019 22:42

Sorry Helena, but I think I would appreciate your actual opinion more than random links.

ScienceIsTruth · 09/01/2019 22:49

ElonMask, I heard about the attack on the train. The only thing that occurred to me about the attacker was that they must've been unhinged to do what they did, especially as it was in front of the man's child. The ethnicity of the attacker didn't enter my thoughts at all. The only assumption I made was that it was someone in their late teens or early 20s, and I think I was wrong about that ( I don't know for sure though bc I haven't seen/read a news report about it).

HelenaDove · 09/01/2019 22:51

Chardonnay It was in response to another poster who asked me what i meant.

In our town we had a mass brawl that lead to a stabbing on Saturday. A fight that lead to a head injury that lead to the air ambulance being deployed on Monday.

Two blokes stole knives from a local butchers yesterday.

And last week Boots had its door smashed by someone trying to steal What i dont know but the Superdrug in the same shopping centre wasnt touched and this particular branch of S doesnt have a pharmacy.

This has all happened in a matter of days. So a lot of us are a bit stunned.

ChardonnaysPrettySister · 09/01/2019 22:57

So it’s seems it’s not just London where all this is everyday occurrence?

One thing I do notice daily is just how aggressive driving has become. I realise it’s trivial compared to your examples, but it’s something that I come across every single day.

HelenaDove · 09/01/2019 23:01

No not trivial Chardonnay Aggressive impatient drivers cause accidents.

Whats so upsetting though is i grew up in that town and still live here. It never used to be anything like it is now

MonsterTequila · 09/01/2019 23:19

Tbf @ElonMask
The projection of rates of Muslims living in the uk may not materialise as the largest growing ‘ideology’ in the world is now Atheism.
The largest growing race is the uk is mixed.
In several hundred years everyone will be mixed race, which can only be a good thing.
However I don’t agree that religion should get a free pass to bigotry, as now is the case. The whole concept of belonging to a religion is crazy, especially when the only reason the vast majority of people belong to any religion is because their parents are, and their parents belong to that religion because of which country their family comes from, & their country is mainly that religion based on which religious fanatic conquered it last.

ElonMask · 10/01/2019 07:47

The ethnicity of the attacker didn't enter my thoughts at all.

Well good for you. Did you think the same about the Manchester attacks e.g. ?

The projection of rates of Muslims living in the uk may not materialise as the largest growing ‘ideology’ in the world is now Atheism.

You have your head in sand, younger muslims are more devout than their parents. They also aren't too keen on apostasy as you may know. Whether you personally think it crazy to belong to a religion or not is irrelevant.

Maryjoyce · 10/01/2019 08:00

Juneau. I hope they get independence. They’ll soon find out how empty the kitty is