To think that the uk is a hostile environment for the natives aswell as for immigrants nowadays?

[malificent7]

Well the government have succeeded in one thing; making the uk a hostile place to live for most people what with cuts. Brexit etc. Is it just me or do things feel... tense?

Some people don’t see an EU army as a bad idea.

That's because it won't be the sons and daughters of the people pushing it that will have to join. It will be the children of the poor and working class who will be seen as army fodder in order to protect the elite and their interests. Look at the police and soldiers doing Macron's dirty work in France, pitting French against French - divide and rule.

We already pool military sovereignty with the UN and NATO. Similar thing.

Mothertruck3r
Quite right.

@DangermousesSidekick

I didn’t mean that to sound quite as antagonistic as it did.

Nowhere have I said that people shouldn’t be concerned that their quality of life may be affected, but neither do I think it’s helpful to catastrophise the situation. I was just saying that, all things considered, we generally have a good standard of living, not that there isn’t room for improvement.

Not this again. I think an EU army would primarily be needed to guard Europe's frontiers, particularly in the East. Russia is looking for opportunity. Not for use against it's own. How do people get these ideas that European countries are so authoritarian?

It doesn't sound like we disagree on that much actually MrsAriadne. Except you think that the EU is th cause of all issues and I think it's a problem brought by Britain. I don't see at the moment how we could find proof either way.

Hypothetically speaking
Re the riots in France, I suppose French troops would maybe think twice if they were ordered to shoot their fellow citizens.

Hello EU army, troops from another country would probably not hesitate to follow orders.

Disclaimer - opinion not mine but that of Dbil. I probably haven't explained it very well.

Look at the police and soldiers doing Macron's dirty work in France, pitting French against French - divide and rule

What "dirty work" are they doing?

I have been told on other threads that the idea there’d be an EU army was nonsense. But Junker and Merkel are perfectly open about their aims.

It depends on whether you think British soldiers should be defending the fringes of Europe.

What a shame Britain has voted to lose its ability to veto an EU army.

Neither the UN nor NATO use our troops to police citizens. Why would an EU army do that?

There are protocols in place for when armies work together.

As other posters say don't catastrophise the hypothetical situation.

@DangermousesSidekick

I’m sure there’s plenty of things we would agree on!

I don’t think all the issues are caused by the EU. I do think it’s expanded far beyond its original scope in a short period of time though. People need time to adjust to change.

Didn't Merkel make a speech where she called for a qualified majority of EU members to enact defence / military decisions rather than a unanimous vote. If that happens, our veto would be useless, no?

If we remained of course

a) Merkel is not the all powerful b) she said that well after Britain's leave vote but insistence that it would still veto before it actually left! Britain had so many extra benefits and opt outs from the EU and actually wielded influence. Now you get the likes of Merkel and Macron saying stuff that they would not have been saying in light of Britain's departure.

Moussemoose

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html

As for you point about the royal family, I hardly think that proves Britains links to Europe are stronger than they are to the global Anglosphere. Very important fact in the 20th century was that Americans spoke English.

I think immigration is a significant reason why people voted leave. Leave voters on Brexit threads are frequently very offended when that is suggested.

On Brexit threads leave voters insist they did lots of research, they understood the topic and immigration was not an issue they considered. MN must attract an unusual group of leave voters.

I'm only passing on an anecdotal observation.

The Royal family is an example of how intertwined British history is with European history. Britain has a foot in both camps. The way Spain and Portugal have strong links with South America.

Countries like people have multiple identities and connections, one does not negate the other.

@Moussemoose

Some people, no doubt, did vote to Leave on the basis that this country has seen high levels of immigration over the years. Not everyone thinks is it a unilaterally good thing. I suspect they’re tired of hearing Leave voters called xenophobes and racists. Some may be. But most are not. People are perfectly entitled to feel these concerns. They haven’t been listened to by our politicians for a very long time.

I know you don’t agree with them, and you’re always very keen to point out that you work with asylum seekers and point out the positives of immigration - but they’re your positives. Not everyone will agree that it’s a good thing, and their experiences are different to yours. You don’t have a monopoly on the subject.

I don't have a monopoly on knowledge but I do have experience.

Lots of people talk about the subject having never met an asylum seeker.

I see a range of people the majority of whom are vulnerable young men who lack role models and guidance. They are inexperienced and lacking in knowledge like most young people. They make mistakes and they don't see the wider picture like most young people.

I do get fed up with people telling me no one challenges unacceptable views - yes we do. I do get fed up with people saying everyone is negative about the U.K. - no we aren't. I do get fed up with people saying they all think the same - no they don't.

We promote British values and they are supported by the vast majority of my students.

I do think that the potential for continued, unlimited immigration is probably the main reason for most Leavers voting leave.

I don't think they are offended at all by that being suggested.

I think they are very offended by racism being suggested. Not just suggested, but stated clearly as an accusation.

Anyone who cannot manage to separate plain old racism from very valid concerns over immigration levels and the problems that continued freedom of movement brings, has to be a special sort of dim.

Or maybe they are just a goading antagonist who sinks straight to the lowest, cheapest level of debate and thinks it wins them the argument.