To think that the uk is a hostile environment for the natives aswell as for immigrants nowadays?

[malificent7]

Well the government have succeeded in one thing; making the uk a hostile place to live for most people what with cuts. Brexit etc. Is it just me or do things feel... tense?

We could feel great pride about having the oldest democracy or whatever but how does that help when our current political situation is a laughing stock that is utterly stuck and cannot cope with mess it got us into?

No one even suggested that it would help with the current situation. That wasn’t what was being discussed. The thread went off on a bit of a tangent.

It's always the same old tangent though.

Because it’s not entirely irrelevant. This identity crisis did have some part to play.

As an outsider coming back to the UK, I see a change.

On one level: The open hostility towards foreigners (especially if you happen to be of darker skin or god forbid not speaking the Queen's tongue) has been given vigour and permission from Brexit that is sure and certain. Many of my Leaver friends and family say this to me.

On another level: the aggression and couldn't-care-less attitude around cities. I see that many cities have grown even in the decade I have been absent. This overcrowding on the roads, in the carparks, in the hospitals, in the shops and in the schools breeds intolerance of others. Everyone is in everyone else's way. Add to this picture the changing face of the population. There is greater diversity - provincial cities are becoming cosmopolitan. This brings about cultural change: old buildings knocked down for new ones, student facilities in residential areas, restaurants that serve the needs of the tourists and rich incomers rather than the 'natives'. The scale of this transition is frightening, especially for older residents. I have sympathy for this fear, I share some regret that the heritage buildings are destroyed for new tourist attractions, and the local 'accents' are increasingly rare. However, I also want to live in places that welcome difference, indeed embrace it. The human race is beautiful in its endless variation.

“However, I also want to live in places that welcome difference, indeed embrace it. The human race is beautiful in its endless variation”.

I agree- but globalisation undermines culture. It seeks to eradicate any differences. I think its expected that we will become a melting pot, with no commonly held culture or beliefs. We are somehow expected to be happy about it or shut up. The public were never consulted.

Mother truck3r- many have seen this agenda unfolding over a long period of time, there seems to be constant propaganda. I think the end will be loss of nations, and we will all be under the rule of a global system of governance.

This is on the visitor centre of the eu-

“National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”

EU are already talking about United state of Europe, giving up national sovereignty, eu army- all the things we were told wouldn’t happen. It’s all a massive power grab.

Nah feels the same for me
In London.

Nationalism is the cause of many evils.

Federalism does not mean centralised power - quite the opposite in fact. A federal system has limited central power and decisions and laws are made at a local level. The EU is committed to subsidiarity.

Guideline laws are made centrally and locally, applied and implemented.

This doesn't always work or turn out to be the case but it is the guiding principle of federalism. It is what the EU is working towards.

In the U.K. federalism is used synonymously with centralism and that is totally incorrect.

That's another problem: the UK's lack of distributed approach to government. Local government is a bad word. Thatcher used to destroy everyone that disagreed with her, Blair was little better in practice using divide and conquer tactics, and the whole principle of negotiation and parts working together in a whole has been destroyed as a result until now we have 'open door' May. Federalism can work in a system which respects local strength as much as central and respects debate. Once again, this is a UK perspective and a UK cultural issue, not an EU one.

Britain has a lesson to learn. What a global power can pass off as “exceptionalism,” for a medium-sized country simply comes across as ingratitude

Ingratitude !? There would be no EU were it not for the racist Churchill and the loathsome British. One bit of history often forgotten by the French in particular.

Remind me, isn't MrsAriadneOliver overseas at the moment and might therefore have a rose-tinted attitude towards life in Britain? The reality is that we have a divided society and British values do not apply to anyone not born into the right middle class supportive families. Homelessness is up. Food poverty is up. The housing market is totally broken. Lower class people have few employment rights and no access to law. There is plenty of judgementalism and anger going around but little in the way of supportive attitudes or sympathy.

Did you see the open letter from leading Germans saying how grateful they were and how they wanted us to stay in the EU.

The letter said " Britain “did not give up on us” after the second world war and welcomed Germanyy* back into the European community. Germans “have not forgotten and we are grateful”

That was nice of them.

EU are already talking about United state of Europe, giving up national sovereignty, eu army- all the things we were told wouldn’t happen. It’s all a massive power grab

Some people don’t see an EU army as a bad idea. I do, for a host of reasons, but having discussed this with various people it’s very difficult to come to any sort of compromise on the issue, as with Brexit as a whole.

Perhaps we sometimes underestimate how slowly people, mindsets, attitudes change. And change should happen naturally, that’s the thing. The EU has expanded rapidly over the years and people haven’t had time to adjust.

That was nice of them

I see it as unwarranted interference, you see, but each to their own.

@DangermousesSidekick

Would you like me to remind you? No, I’m not overseas. Were you hoping you could dismiss my thoughts on the matter?

In Belgium's Ypres they still play the Last Post every day and look after large swathes of war cemetaries. Sweden isn't happy seeing the UK leave, neither is the Netherlands. Is this what the UK really wants? Is all this a confused, collective, desperate need for an ego boost or a hug, in teenager-fashion?

Oh, I thought we were a "laughing stock" ? Make your mind up.

Ingratitude !? There would be no EU were it not for the racist Churchill and the loathsome British. One bit of history often forgotten by the French in particular

As ever. Stuck in the past and missing the point. It's really not working out well.

Dangermouse-
I think that rather than rose tinted spectacles, it was said that common held values/beliefs ensure social stability. What we have seen recently is the undermining of traditional British values in favour of relativism- leading to a rise of social problems.
Britain is certainly not the most hostile country a person could live in by far. However the reasons WHY have been forgotten and undervalued.
The economy is another factor, that plays into it- but not the only one.

It feels like were in a bit of a pressure cooker scenario.

The political culture and classes are laughing stocks. Europeans can be as saddened by the self-destruction of a nation as much as I. Both reactions are possible.
Were you hoping you could dismiss my thoughts on the matter? One way of looking at it I suppose . I am always bemused by the mentality of people, particularly well-off people as they usually are, who claim that poorer people should just suck up their lives getting worse because they should be grateful they don't live in North Korea, or life is really wonderful for them therefore it can't be true, or some similar tired statement.

Britain has never really been part of Europe because of its geographic location, but the Anglosphere, itself a legacy of the hated empire is what saved Europe from German or Soviet dominance. The hypoerbolic articles about how Britain will be on its knees without the Eu have not persuaded the majority.

People see the Brexit referendum as the only way they had to say "enough immigration" is my belief. You can see that from "white flight" Luton didn't just naturally become like it is, people must leave in order for such massive demographic shifts. You may say this is racism or whatever but it doesn't really matter because it supposed to be a democracy and people did not vote for this, to me that is the key thing.

“Some people don’t see an EU army as a bad idea. I do, for a host of reasons, but having discussed this with various people it’s very difficult to come to any sort of compromise on the issue, as with Brexit as a whole”

I usually find the same people who don’t mind it, are the same ones who dismissed people who mentioned it as conspiracy theorist nuts, not so long ago. We were told it wouldn’t happen- osbourne said it was a “dangerous fantasy”. Now its changed to “so what if the eu, wants it’s own army”.

All the Brexit threads claim Brexit is absolutely NOT about immigrants, or it is only a very small factor.

The U.K. is intrinsically linked to Europe. Our royal family is a prime example of that.

The possibility of an EU army would worry me too.