DH huge rows with nearly 2 year old

[MoaningSickness]

So my 21 month old is gorgeous and wonderful and of course, irritating as fuck in that way that only a toddler can be.

I mostly manage not to scream and gnash my teeth when I realise she has managed to smuggle food down her shirt from lunch and lovingly spread in on the sofa, or Andrew puppied the loo roll... But DH is getting increasingly cross with her, for what I consider to be normal behaviour for her age.

I popped out this evening as they went into the bathroom. When I returned, they were still in there, she was wailing, and he gave a massive tirade about how she had done X,Y and Z and made a mess 'even when he asked her not to' and apparently they had been locked in a 45 minute stand off where he said they weren't leaving the room til she tidied away the mess she had made and she was refusing/crying.

I told DH to go take a moment and regain his calm, he accused me of undermining him, I said I would get her to tidy but he needed to calm down, so he went and we tidied.

I tried to talk to him later, but he kept saying she needs to learn she can't make a mess, etc, and I think she is just to young to really get the consequences of her actions. He says she is old enough to understand 'no'.

I don't think it helps that she is very verbal so she appears older than she is. For example she will say 'sorry' if you tell her to, but I don't think she understands the concept of being sorry at all. Or DH will get her to say she promises she won't do X, which she faithfully parrots, but I don't believe she has the faintest idea what a 'promise' is, so it's hardly surprising when she does the thing two minutes later.

I don't want to undermine him, but when I came in and he launched into 'she did this, she did that' it was more like listening to a sibling telling tales on how it is all the other child's fault than a 40 year old talking about a 1 year old.

I think DH and I have very different ideas about the level of behaviour to expect from a child her age, and I don't honestly know which of us is off base. Aibu or is he?

Op you obviously think it's serious enough to warrant posting on here and asking for advice. So don't quite understand why you're getting so defensive over your husbands actions.

So well said, @Kittykat93

He's as thick as shit arguing with a toddler for Christ's sake. Was she just out of the bath? If so did he make her stand there getting cold while he went on at her?

Op you obviously think it's serious enough to warrant posting on here and asking for advice. So don't quite understand why you're getting so defensive over your husbands actions

Because 'advice' that centers around some mythical situation where he shouted at her or is a narcissist isn't useful to me.

The many people who have bothered to actually read and listen to what I'm saying have given useful advice, so I'm glad I posted for that. It's just a shame I have to read through all the over dramatic made up scenarios to get to the good ones.

Was she just out of the bath? If so did he make her stand there getting cold while he went on at her?

Nope, none if that is true. Just more stupid random fantasy.

My dd is 20 months. She's a little monkey at times but do I get mad at her? No. She's still a baby, she doesn't understand being berated. She's usually at her naughtiest when she's not getting enough attention. Your dh sounds a massive knob head.

Not sure why you say it's a random fantasy, you were the one who said they were in the bathroom for 45 minutes. What were they doing then?

Actually, I don’t think it’s all that bad. Words like “row”, “stand-off” etc make it sound bad. But I remember doing similar - factually - around that age with my DD who was also verbally way ahead of her age.

She’d emptied two boxes of tampons and a whole box of q-tips all over the bathroom floor during my 2 mins shower. Fine, she was tiny, it’s fun. But she had to learn it’s not on, and that if you want to make a mess, you tidy it up.

I took my sweet time in the bathroom after my shower (moisturizer, hair dryer, tweezers etc) all the while jabbering with her about “no I don’t want to”, “you have to though, those are the rules” etc etc. All very jolly and firm. Easily half an hour. She probably tidied up half the mess in a totally untidy way. When I was ready to leave and get dressed I chivvied her along and got her to put everything away as best she could.

I wasn’t going to let it drop. The point has to be made repeatedly with some kids; give them an inch, they’ll take a mile.

Fast forward some years, she always always always tidies up her own messes without being asked.

If your DH was being firm but kind, I really don’t see the problem. So DD was crying; many DCs cry when they don’t get their way/ are told what to do. They still have to do it. Was this why your DD was crying?

I can’t imagine a world where a father or anyone else expects a 21 month old toddler to pick up and tidy after themselves. Call me old-fashioned

It's just a shame I have to read through all the over dramatic made up scenarios to get to the good ones

Please tell me whether mine is a dramatic made-up one or a good one.

I didn't make up a dramatic scenario either just asked a couple of simple questions which you've not answered.

Anyway I'm sure your husband feels like quite the big man now shouting at a baby.

You know what they say about denial...

You're very brave to admit to doing similar on this thread 7salmonswimming, you'll be called a narcissistic child abuser too...

But she had to learn it’s not on, and that if you want to make a mess, you tidy it up

This is how DH felt, but I really don't think my DD is ready for that yet.

Toddlers don't understand 'making a mess'. They are just playing with the stuff thats around them. They don't understand 'tidying up'. Turning it into a standoff is miserable and pointless.
Do it with them, show them how its done, be encouraging.

You are presumably not going to tell me which camp my posts fall into, @MoaningSickness? I'm not calling your DH a narcissistic child abuser, but would be interested to hear your views on my posts.

I didn't make up a dramatic scenario either just asked a couple of simple questions which you've not answered.

Seriously? You asked a 'simple question' about whether my DH physically tortured my child by keeping her cold, in a scenario that had absolutely zero to do with my OP, and you can't see that you are inventing drama?

And I did answer. Nope.

Anyway I'm sure your husband feels like quite the big man now shouting at a baby.

And now you are making up lies that he shouted at her. This is really tedious.

You are presumably not going to tell me which camp my posts fall into

Well, you've not engaged in full on 'make up whatever you feel happened in OPs bathroom', like some of the previous posters, I'll give you that!

You feel DHs method of handling things needs nipping in the bud because you have personal experience where it's escalated to worse. Obviously I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't know what would happen in the future, but as I say, I feel his tactics are age inappropriate, rather than straight up 'wrong', so I don't think it escalating is an issue.

I do think he needs to learn to deal with it better (as does he), as at the moment he's letting the situations 'get to him'. (It's hard not to at times, I know).

At 21mo, no she doesn’t know what mess is or what tidy is or why....she’s still learning upright and back to front and dimensions and gravity and and and....

But this isn’t about “teaching” or instruction. It’s just life. Things don’t belong in the floor, they belong in their place. And you don’t have other people clear up after you either (except at 21mo you kind of do). Nothing to get angry about or shout about. Just ‘not right’. So you don’t leave it and walk away, and you don’t tidy it for her, because then you’re demonstrating that a mess is okay, and that other people pick up after you. It’s just the way things are, and she needs to be around that and know that. No shouting or arguing or anything untoward, just normal life.

But this isn’t about “teaching” or instruction. It’s just life. Things don’t belong in the floor, they belong in their place.

Broadly, I agree with this. I try to get DD to participate as much as she can in things, i.e. she 'cleans her teeth' then I 'finish', she 'helps' me unload the washing machine, we tidy away toys together etc, because I want her to grow up with these things (and more as she gets older) just being life.

But, if she's being resistant to that currently I wouldn't insist, because I can't 'make' her, and I think at her age its good when she does it, and don't worry if sometimes she doesn't.

So you don’t leave it and walk away, and you don’t tidy it for her, because then you’re demonstrating that a mess is okay, and that other people pick up after you.

See, I would tidy for her, and I wouldn't worry about demonstrating that I'll do it for her, because I think there's plenty of time in the future to show this when she can better comprehend it.

(Thanks for your comments, incidentally, they are helping me think through things, even if we are not totally in agreement).

Well, with my DD, she didn’t really tidy away. They can’t at that age, can they. But she more or less put the tampons more or less in and around the box while I held it open and shoved them right way round, same with the q tips. All the while I was saying things like “and another one, and that one, you can’t leave any behind, good girl, last one” blah blah. Boring AF but she didn’t get to run away and leave the mess. The important thing isn’t that she tidied it. It’s that SHE THOUGHT she tidied it. That’s all you want at this age. You want them to start learning basic things like how to treat people and things, actions/consequences etc. With simple things like this you lay the foundations for later on, when it’s dirty washing that doesn’t come downstairs, lunchboxes that don’t get emptied, gym kits that get left on the bus etc.

Anyhow, who knows. All parents are first time parents at some point. Maybe I’m totally wrong 🤷‍♀️

Also, on the point about there being plenty of time later on to teach certain things, I’m not sure I agree.

I think consistency is very very important. I think parents should do things for their children until the children can do these things themselves AND realise that if parents decide to do these things anyway, it’s an indulgence/ out of “god I love you so much come here with your filthy football kit I’ll clean it for you”. It goes right through the ages. Children will grow up and earn their own keep (hopefully!) but you’ll still spoil them and treat them occasionally.

So to me it’s confusing to have a child who CAN tidy away (as you mentioned) and who you allow to not tidy away before she’s capable of understanding that this is an indulgence.

Because 'advice' that centers around some mythical situation where he shouted at her or is a narcissist isn't useful to me.

The only person I have seen doing what you described in your OP and subsequent posts, taking umbrage at being 'undermined' when someone stepped in to cool the situation and save the child, and offering the intellectualised 'justifications' for being too full of his own shit to back down is my exH, an out and out narcissist.

Believe me, I sincerely hope I am wrong here.

But I do not think I am.

I read
'how to talk so little children will listen' because I am a DGM who used to threaten my own DCs with a smack (jokingly ) and shout to get DCs to pick stuff up (not at 2 btw). That's not allowed now with DGCs and the info in that book worked a treat. True you feel a bit of an idiot when you are in the cafe trying to get coats on by saying 'boohoohoo I'm a sad little coat with no one inside me, I'm all alone, don't leave me here' in a sad baby voice, whilst holding the coat. But the 2/3 year old jumps up at that to put their coat on. Amazing it works! Knowing ways to do stuff takes all the anger and frustration out of it. Please read the book.
Because your baby is now toddling and speaking a bit doesn't mean they are mature. They are a tiny that needs love most of all.

@MoaningSickness, thank you for acknowledging.

FWIW, which is probably not much, I started a similar thread here about 12 years and 12 million NCs ago.

I started it for the obvious reason: I was concerned, following a particular episode (similar to yours). However, I didn't like all the responses (including, needless to say, some really annoying ones which invented/imagined/exaggerated things in my OP). I backtracked, said it would probably be better once the DC were older, etc, etc.

I didn't want to listen to the posters who said XH and I should do something before it was too late - but they were right.

Another vote for the BBC series mentioned by pp. You could suggest watching that together over a couple of evenings? Dh rolled his eyes when I mentioned it (in a jokey way, as he knows I'm fascinated in human behaviour, including child development) but he really enjoyed watching it and comparing scenarios to our own dd's personality and temperament. He's far more laid back with dd than he was with ds. As I said earlier, your dh does need to understand the potential impact on his relationship with you and his child if he continues with the stand offs and you can't agree on how to deal with toddler behaviour. Part of that is learning when to back off - and a huge part of that is being cognisant of a child's character and how they're likely to react in certain situations. I've heard lots of people suggest the book 'how to talk so kids will listen' if you're able to perhaps read it yourself and read out some key parts of it to him in a "oh, that's interesting" way.