DH huge rows with nearly 2 year old

[MoaningSickness]

So my 21 month old is gorgeous and wonderful and of course, irritating as fuck in that way that only a toddler can be.

I mostly manage not to scream and gnash my teeth when I realise she has managed to smuggle food down her shirt from lunch and lovingly spread in on the sofa, or Andrew puppied the loo roll... But DH is getting increasingly cross with her, for what I consider to be normal behaviour for her age.

I popped out this evening as they went into the bathroom. When I returned, they were still in there, she was wailing, and he gave a massive tirade about how she had done X,Y and Z and made a mess 'even when he asked her not to' and apparently they had been locked in a 45 minute stand off where he said they weren't leaving the room til she tidied away the mess she had made and she was refusing/crying.

I told DH to go take a moment and regain his calm, he accused me of undermining him, I said I would get her to tidy but he needed to calm down, so he went and we tidied.

I tried to talk to him later, but he kept saying she needs to learn she can't make a mess, etc, and I think she is just to young to really get the consequences of her actions. He says she is old enough to understand 'no'.

I don't think it helps that she is very verbal so she appears older than she is. For example she will say 'sorry' if you tell her to, but I don't think she understands the concept of being sorry at all. Or DH will get her to say she promises she won't do X, which she faithfully parrots, but I don't believe she has the faintest idea what a 'promise' is, so it's hardly surprising when she does the thing two minutes later.

I don't want to undermine him, but when I came in and he launched into 'she did this, she did that' it was more like listening to a sibling telling tales on how it is all the other child's fault than a 40 year old talking about a 1 year old.

I think DH and I have very different ideas about the level of behaviour to expect from a child her age, and I don't honestly know which of us is off base. Aibu or is he?

Like others have said, he must read a child development book or attend a child development class. Every parent should really. He'll learn about the different stages children go through.

A child simply cannot understand and reason like an adult.

It's so tough not to lose my cool though. I try to remind myself that I might lose my cool w him sometimes and reprimand him, and that's not great but understandable. But that it's not good parenting to do this. My mil thinks good parenting is about 'boundaries' and constant rules and constant policing of behaviour

Yes. I sympathize with him a lot because it is difficult at times.

It sounds like your DH is trying to follow through on his word (a good thing!) but is pitching it too high.

This. I think he told her they weren't leaving til she put the things back, but wasn't prepared for the fact that he can't actually 'make her' and that she could in fact stay in there while he slowly got angrier, and then felt he couldn't back down.

She's just a baby! He's bullying her if he's having full blown arguments with a tiny infant. She won't understand the consequences of her behaviour and her frontal lobes are not developed enough to control her behaviour. DH's frontal lobes should be fully developed by now!

My DS is a little older than your DD and he is a massive pain in the arse and is constantly doing stuff like this. I can get why your DH is frustrated BUT he is totally in the wrong, trying to reason etc just doesn’t work. Distraction is the best IMO, move on, get them distracted and tidy it up later. I say this as the person who broke down and cried the other day when DS flooded the bathroom. I was trying to tidy as the DPIL were coming to look after DS while DH and I went to my grandads funeral and it was the straw that broke the camels back, so I get it, but the reality is that he’s just exploring, pushing boundaries and learning. Just got to ride it out!

45 minutes? Does he realise what else he could have done in 45 mins?

(you don't have to answer)

ummmm... 21 months is just a baby! She does not understand, or quite frankly give a shit if she makes a mess, as she can't even comprehend the issues of "making a mess". To her in her little toddler bubble, she's just having fun and experimenting with her environment. She wouldn't have been refusing to tidy up out of defiance, she was probably just upset that he ended her game, then scared, wondering why he was shouting at her, and then started crying, and then it all escalated into what your partner saw as "a naughty child having a tantrum as they didn't want to do as they were told".
My youngest is 21 months, also extremely vocal (talks in 5/6 word sentences) and understands a great deal, but I still would never expect her to understand that "the house isn't going to tidy itself!" as why would she give a shit?! She'd probably love it if we lived in a constant sea of toys and half eaten snacks under our feet. Obviously we tidy up every evening, and every morning she ransacks it all again, but that's our job as parents to tidy, not hers as a one year old. As she gets older she will be expected to help tidy up after herself in age appropriate ways, and sometimes we makes games out of tidy up time, as her big sister (4) likes to see who can tidy up the most toys first, how many puzzles can they put back before the song ends etc, and thr youngest gets involved as it's fun, and a game, not a chore that she's expected to carry out. My eldest will put her clothes in the laundry basket, help take stuff out the washing machine/dishwasher, and asks to do little jobs for me as she likes the responsibility, and engaging with me while I do the everyday stuff around the house, and again, the youngest one watches and tries to help as well as she likes to learn and be grown up like her sister. If your partner made the tidying up into a big game "let's see who can throw the toys into the basket! Oh wow you scored a goal!! well done!" He's see much more cooperation. She isn't being defiant or anything, other than a confused baby, who will end up not likingnher father very much if he carries on acting like that towards her.

The objection to you ' undermining' him is worrying.

He has some notion of 'authority' or position here. He is setting up a scenario in his own head that could end in serious abuse.

His perception of being challenged by a little child needs to be eradicated from his mindset. It has absolutely no place in a relationship with a toddler.

The sooner your ignorant and seriously up himself bully of a H gets to a really good parenting class the better for all of you but especially for your poor little DC.

He needs to adjust his image of himself and to get real with his expectations.

Just a word of warning here - it is very common for narcissists to have this sort if interaction with toddlers. They can be good with babies, who are non verbal, but that word 'no' from a toddler can flip the switch that summons forth the narcissistic response.

To clarify, everyone finds toddlers hard work. This does not mean that everyone is a narcissist. A narcissist finds toddlers hard work because of the perception of a threat to some imagined authority - the lack of deference is like a red rag to a bull.

If your H won't admit he is wrong here you may have a big problem on your hands.

It sounds like your DH is trying to follow through on his word (a good thing!) but is pitching it too high.

So on a practical note a method that worked for my DS at that age is making it a game at who could pick up an item the fastest and put it back, him or me. This had the effect of making it a game and I wasn't standing over him demanding I was participating as well

12-24 months is a really, really hard age. I felt worn down emotionally and physically that whole time and living in a constant tip destroyed on a daily basis by DS whilst also trying to keep him safe, fed, clean(ish) and entertained was enough to push me to the edge of my patience on a number of occasions.

That said, your DH is not communicating with your DD on a level appropriate to her age. You said she is highly verbal so that helps but it's not just words it's ideas and concepts. Consequences are beginning to take shape through cause and effect but they have to be small, immediate and relevant.

Sometimes it's worth sticking to your guns (no means no) but you do need to choose your battles very wisely.

Hopefully you and your DH can discuss what happened and come up with some realistic strategies for the future.

There are lots of resources online about the three basic types of parenting - permissive, authoritarian and authoritative. Of the three, authoritative parenting is probably the best approach as the other two can have significant issues. He sounds like he is an authoritarian parent, and you are more authoritative. Maybe have a look at one of the websites that describes these parenting styles and discuss with him what he thinks is the right approach.

If he is receptive to getting feedback from you, and won't just be angry and reactive.

Wtf!!! She’s a baby! My son will be 2 at the end of the month, it’d be impossible to have a “row” with him.

How about sympathising with your 21 month old baby who had a grown man lose control and shout at her until she cried for an extended period of time OP?

Your DH is an adult and much bigger, louder and stronger than her. To her, he is a giant. Look at it from her point of view
He slowly got angrier
Do you think she felt safe? Shouting at her and losing his rag will have triggered a stress response of fear and anxiety. She doesn’t yet have the cognitive ability to understand actions and consequences so this simply amounts to bullying. He bullies a baby.

Stop sticking up for him. You posted on here because you know he’s in the wrong. Stay with that gut feeling and tell him to get help. Yes young children can be frustrating but if you can understand and control your frustration then so can he. If he can’t, then he really does have a problem which needs serious intervention.

Op I read somewhere, and it could be cobblers that in Japan they don't even try and discipline children until they are 7. Because often the understanding isn't there.

I have disasplined mine and some things would be non negotiable at any age eg violence at toddler group or soft play...

I would say we are leaving and follow through. But dd had friend who was very switched on and could understand so much from a young age but mine didn't...

One child gets it another you may as well be talking Chinese.

I popped out this evening as they went into the bathroom. When I returned, they were still in there, she was wailing, and he gave a massive tirade about how she had done X,Y and Z and made a mess 'even when he asked her not to' and apparently they had been locked in a 45 minute stand off where he said they weren't leaving the room til she tidied away the mess she had made and she was refusing/crying.

Abusive, bullying, traumatising. He's mistreating your child. You have to protect her from him.

I'm horrified by what you've told us.

It's unfair expectations of her by him. She is at a developmental stage where it is entirely normal, in fact vitally compulsive, to explore her environment and how she can affect it. She WILL NOT with the best will in the world remember an instruction or be able to comply with it for very long. It is vexing but she is not being deliberately naughty. In fact, not doing the above things could be a signs that a child was intellectually delayed or abusively traumatised.
The best ways to manage this behavioural stage is
a) keep anything you don't want touched out of reach
b) know what is reasonable to expect a child to do or not do
c) motivate her to do what is asked i.e. use rewards and praise, make it fun to do.

This battleground says more about him than her, and hopefully he can be educated to improve.

How about sympathising with your 21 month old baby who had a grown man lose control and shout at her until she cried for an extended period of time OP?

I've already explained he wasn't shouting at her. If you won't believe me there's not a lot more I can say. I am sympathetic that she was crying, but I'm not a massive hypocrite and I know I've also made her cry multiple times today (stopping her throwing herself off the sofa, giving her the wrong cheese, etc).

I'm not saying what he did was right, I 'm clearly concerned, but I don't think he's being abusive.

Weird. My DD is 3 months younger & I would actually seriously hate my DH if he did this to her. Way to young to understand. 45 minutes?! Poor girl. Tell him to grow up.

she is a baby

You must realise it's not the same when she cries because you're keeping her safe and presumably being kind/caring/patient with her?

It's completely baffling to expect a 2yr old to tidy up.

The thing is she does understand what that is and does do it (when she's in the mood), putting all her toys away with me when I ask is one of her favourite games.

And when she was about 18 months and DH told me he was teaching her to count I laughed, but then a month later she could properly count up to ten toys - so my ideas of what a one year old can understand or not are not always perfect.

But I'm glad the consensus is that I'm not being unreasonable in thinking he's expecting far.too much.

He doesn't have the time to read books, though I appreciate all the suggestions. I might see if I can find articles, or maybe get a book and pick out some bits. We had another chat, and he is definitely open to suggestions.

He needs to make some time! It's basic parenting and he can't carry on as he is.

Op l,so I'd say he wasn't shouting at her for 45 mins! Probably just stood in the bathroom saying, no, now you have to do this and tidy this, hoping she would do what he wants because he is the parent and he said so. He sounds stressed and got overwhelmed. I'd sit him down and say, DH we need to talk about what happened. This is not the way we are going to discipline our DC. Tell him what way is appropriate for a 2 year old and what is not.Tell him what he did just stressed him and your DC and didn't help.We all get stressed with toddlers at times but he can't do that.Also I'd say he said you undermined him being defensive.

At about that point one day, I had to cry in front of dh and point out that dd was being “biologically appropriate “. I made him take an afternoon off work to attend a toddler development session with the child health nurse. He’s a good man so did learn. But yes, I did have to point out the “not just off yhe internet “ thing, too.

He doesn't have the time to read books, though I appreciate all the suggestions.

Doesn't have time or chooses not to make time? Everyone's busy but you make time for the things which are important. He can't dip in and out where he feels like it - there's a huge journey ahead of you as a family and for it to be successful you need to learn to co-operate, compromise and accept that there are certain parts of your child that are her nature, not her nurture, so they're as inherent as his need for control and order.

People having children have so many ideals and expectations and once it becomes apparent that those ideals are off-base they can spiral into what-the-fuck moments. It's normal to feel that way, and normal to try and claw back control when you feel like you don't know what you're doing. But your DH has to accept that his role to his DD is to nurture and protect her. If he doesn't build her up and fill her with self-esteem and joy whilst she's young it will impact her for the rest of her life - she may look for that nurture and kindness in all the wrong places. Nobody in the world should love and cherish you like your Mum and Dad. Remind him of that, please.

I don't think it's all baffling to expect a two year old to tidy up. My 21 month old DS does...he's not a genius, we just make it a game and do it together.

21 month olds are not too young for 'discipline' but it has to be done in an age appropriate way- quick, gentle and move on to something new very soon, for example for major transgressions (hitting, biting etc) DS is removed from the situation and 'sits out' for 30 seconds- enough time to realise this is a very short immediate consequence, then we move on. No holding grudges. Let the little stuff go.

She's 21 months, not 21 years. He needs to do some reading on what she is capable of and take steps to improve behaviour in very small interactive ways. She is not suddenly going to behave perfectly, that's not how it works! Tell him to lighten up a bit, make things into games (eg tidying up, getting dressed etc), and both agree a way to introduce some gentle discipline for very bad or dangerous behaviour.