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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DH huge rows with nearly 2 year old

242 replies

MoaningSickness · 02/01/2019 19:17

So my 21 month old is gorgeous and wonderful and of course, irritating as fuck in that way that only a toddler can be.

I mostly manage not to scream and gnash my teeth when I realise she has managed to smuggle food down her shirt from lunch and lovingly spread in on the sofa, or Andrew puppied the loo roll... But DH is getting increasingly cross with her, for what I consider to be normal behaviour for her age.

I popped out this evening as they went into the bathroom. When I returned, they were still in there, she was wailing, and he gave a massive tirade about how she had done X,Y and Z and made a mess 'even when he asked her not to' and apparently they had been locked in a 45 minute stand off where he said they weren't leaving the room til she tidied away the mess she had made and she was refusing/crying.

I told DH to go take a moment and regain his calm, he accused me of undermining him, I said I would get her to tidy but he needed to calm down, so he went and we tidied.

I tried to talk to him later, but he kept saying she needs to learn she can't make a mess, etc, and I think she is just to young to really get the consequences of her actions. He says she is old enough to understand 'no'.

I don't think it helps that she is very verbal so she appears older than she is. For example she will say 'sorry' if you tell her to, but I don't think she understands the concept of being sorry at all. Or DH will get her to say she promises she won't do X, which she faithfully parrots, but I don't believe she has the faintest idea what a 'promise' is, so it's hardly surprising when she does the thing two minutes later.

I don't want to undermine him, but when I came in and he launched into 'she did this, she did that' it was more like listening to a sibling telling tales on how it is all the other child's fault than a 40 year old talking about a 1 year old.

I think DH and I have very different ideas about the level of behaviour to expect from a child her age, and I don't honestly know which of us is off base. Aibu or is he?

OP posts:
MoaningSickness · 04/01/2019 10:00

taking umbrage at being 'undermined' when someone stepped in to cool the situation and save the child

I didn't step in to 'save the child' I stepped in because I could see he was losing it (I've been at the end of my tether, I know what it's like). And I knew he needed to step away and take a breath.

I would be pretty annoyed if he undermined me, so why he is supposed to stuck it up or be a narcissist, I have no idea. As explained in the original OP (if you bothered to read it), I told him I wouldn't undermine him and he went. Parenting as a united front is important to us.

too full of his own shit to back down

He made a stupid decision in declaring a consequence that wound him up to carry through, obviously. But in principle I agree with being consistent. Saying one thing, then backing down if the child objects is not good parenting to me. Again, you want to spin something that is not the issue into a problem (because of your personal history?).

To be honest if you are going to continue to not read and just make stuff up, I'd rather you didn't bother posting. Plenty of posters have understood the situation and given me advice!

OP posts:
MoaningSickness · 04/01/2019 10:18

Thank you for all the suggestions for the BBC programme, it was something I was interested in watching anyway (my mum recommended it) so we will definitely watch that.

I will take a look at the book suggestions.

He actually is signed up the the 'babycenter toddler bulletin' thing someone mentioned but I don't know if he looks at them anymore I know he showed me some of the early ones and I found them so basic and patronising I didn't bother (sorry if that offends anyone who likes them).

OP posts:
firstbrightday · 04/01/2019 11:50

www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/grownups/schemas

All of this is totally normal one year old behaviour.

I am completely baffled as to why he thinks he can communicate this way with a one year old?? She doesn't have a clue what a mess is never mind that she's making one!!!!

ChocolateCoins567 · 04/01/2019 12:29

Sounds a bit like my DB. Gets tunnel vision and loses his patience, it happens to everyone. No parent is perfect! But also 45 mins is a long stand off with a grown adult and a baby! I'd have said lets tidy together can you pass me the one behind you, oh thank you you're doing a great job etc etc. Does he feel any differently about it now?

mathanxiety · 04/01/2019 12:49

If you didn't step on to save the children then you should have. That should have been your primary concern.

WellThisIsShit · 04/01/2019 19:09

I understand why you’d be backing away in horror at some of the knee jerk reactions on here built around misreading or exaggerating what happened.

Try to ignore those and take out the good bits, and try not to leave behind some of the advice because it’s all jumbled up with the more err, dramatic stuff?!

I do think there’s an underlying problem with your dh’s attitude towards your dd. But so do you a bit, which is why you posted! But no need to paint him as this evil child abuser, when the situation doesn’t merit that.

But getting him to engage in a more age appropriate way is super important, as if this becomes a daily occurance, he would be heading down a pretty awful path... but, he’s not there yet and only you, and he (!), know how likely it is. Hopefully he can get ‘recalibrated’ now, and it becomes just a bad memory in years to come. And if it doesn’t work out like that, then you can deal with that if it happens.

Would it help for him to understand her ability in terms of computer commands?

She’s at the AND / OR stage of thinking, and the YES / NO stage. That’s pretty much it and she’ll be there for a good whilst to come yet before she moves on to anything more complicated like: IF, THEN or BUT!

Your dh was asking her to understand a long sequence of causality in that bathroom scenario, and she just cognitively can’t do it, no matter how advanced she is, he’s asking her to process something a 4 or 5 yr old would have the capability to do, and still not get right half the time!

You cannot ask a baby to understand sequences such as ‘IF X THEN Y, BUT IF Z THEN X, W will happen, after T minutes!

Her counting is fab. But can she understand the concept of numbers? As she’s a bit young to even understand object permanence, so I’m not quite sure how she would be able to understand what a discrete entity is in its own right, and therefore how to count it, and the relationship it has to the number name Eg is brick number 5 still number 5 if you shuffle the bricks? Or do the numbers go down if you disappear an object behind your back?

Because that’s what ‘counting’ means, otherwise it’s just reciting words in a sequence - which is also a great achievement of memory and linguistic ability at her age by the way, I’m not taking that away!

Sophia1984 · 05/01/2019 10:42

There’s a few great books on Audible I’ve been listening to:

Playful parenting - Lawrence Cohen
How to Talk so little kids will listen - Joanna Fabre and Julie King
No drama discipline - Daniel Siegel
Calm parents,happy kids - Dr Laura Markham

All really accessible and easy to listen to x

JanuarySnowdrops · 05/01/2019 11:01

@WellThisIsShit Well said! 👏

mathanxiety · 07/01/2019 02:05

But in principle I agree with being consistent. Saying one thing, then backing down if the child objects is not good parenting to me.

The most important element in parenting is that the parent stays in control of him or herself. Putting the value of consistency above self control and maintaining control of the situation is a mistake.

A parent who has lost control creates a frightening situation for the child. I am not talking about raging or storming around thumping walls or anything like that. I am referring to a parent who keeps badgering a child for perhaps as much as 45 minutes to do something. That is a situation where a parent has lost control and a child has been frightened.

Children want the parent to be in control. You don't back down if the child objects. You simply change the mood, move the goalposts. You stay in charge and nobody gets hurt.

How is it 'losing control' and not 'being consistent'? The parent lost control the minute he gave a verbal direction to someone capable of shaking her head and saying no and not immediately making a joke about it, getting down on the floor and turning it into a race or some other light hearted activity. Even if she didn't join in he could have said, 'OK, I will do it this time and next time you can join the fun and help me!'

Having a pole up your ass is always going to be a real hindrance to good parenting.

mathanxiety · 07/01/2019 04:24

To be honest if you are going to continue to not read and just make stuff up, I'd rather you didn't bother posting. Plenty of posters have understood the situation and given me advice!

Here are your own words. I have not misread them.

DH is getting increasingly cross with her, for what I consider to be normal behaviour for her age.

  • So this isn't the first time there has been some sort of standoff, or a situation of DH's own making that has resulted in him getting cross.

...she was wailing, and he gave a massive tirade about how she had done X,Y and Z and made a mess 'even when he asked her not to' and apparently they had been locked in a 45 minute stand off where he said they weren't leaving the room til she tidied away the mess she had made and she was refusing/crying.

  • 'Massive tirade' - this happens when someone has got to the point of the dam bursting, and unless your DH is incredibly hotheaded, capable of zero to 60 in a few minutes, the standoff would have lasted at least 20 minutes, most likely more.

I told DH to go take a moment and regain his calm, he accused me of undermining him, I said I would get her to tidy but he needed to calm down, so he went and we tidied.

  • He was noticeably not calm, in your own words.
And you exchanged words in front of your child - he was not calm enough to put his money where his mouth was on the question of a united front. He was angry enough to twist the idea of a united front into a necessity for you to back him up no matter how stupid he had been.

I tried to talk to him later, but he kept saying she needs to learn she can't make a mess, etc, and I think she is just to young to really get the consequences of her actions. He says she is old enough to understand 'no'.

  • Still up on his high horse and not willing to listen.
  • Still emotionally distanced from the distressing situation he had caused and offering up intellectualised justifications, not willing to admit he had taken it too far. Still inclined to believe in the sledgehammer approach, which is what insisting on obedience to a verbal command is.

I don't want to undermine him, but when I came in and he launched into 'she did this, she did that' it was more like listening to a sibling telling tales on how it is all the other child's fault than a 40 year old talking about a 1 year old.

  • And that is the hallmark of a narcissist, right there. You saw it with your own eyes but you don't want to believe it.

...was good with her as a baby, but he is struggling with this new toddler 'saying no/doing exactly what you told her not to' thing. I do also find it maddening.

  • Narcissists do well with non-verbal babies. Not so much with toddlers or anyone else capable of saying No. The blank slate has thoughts, uses words, doesn't just count or parrot back parental input.

I think he told her they weren't leaving til she put the things back, but wasn't prepared for the fact that he can't actually 'make her' and that she could in fact stay in there while he slowly got angrier, and then felt he couldn't back down.

  • 'Slowly got angrier'. 'Couldn't back down' .
It's a huge problem that he couldn't 'hear' himself, see that his approach wasn't working, or feel enough empathy for the baby to change the tone.

I stepped in because I could see he was losing it (I've been at the end of my tether, I know what it's like). And I knew he needed to step away and take a breath.

  • He was 'losing it' or at the 'end of his tether'.

I am sympathetic that she was crying, but I'm not a massive hypocrite and I know I've also made her cry multiple times today (stopping her throwing herself off the sofa, giving her the wrong cheese, etc).
I'm not saying what he did was right, I 'm clearly concerned, but I don't think he's being abusive.

  • For some reason you are not able or maybe willing to see the difference between keeping a child in a bathroom for 45 minutes until X was done before Y could happen and taking her away from a couch (maybe under one minute of interaction) or giving the wrong cheese (maybe one minute of interaction).
There is a huge difference. One example is abuse. One example is parenting.

(And again wrt the jumping off the couch, if she wants to jump off the back, teach her to jump off the front instead, make it a game. From the pov of safety, put the couch against a wall if it isn't already).

The thing is she does understand what that is and does do it (when she's in the mood), putting all her toys away with me when I ask is one of her favourite games.
And when she was about 18 months and DH told me he was teaching her to count I laughed, but then a month later she could properly count up to ten toys - so my ideas of what a one year old can understand or not are not always perfect.

  • 'When she's in the mood' should tell you all you need to know about her level of 'understanding' and it is worrying that you seem confused by H's statements.
Don't let him gaslight you about what she is and is not capable of doing or understanding.

...he said he was worried that making it a game would encourage her to make a big mess the next time, so they could play at tidying it again.
And why would this be a problem?
What is wrong with games?
What is wrong with mess, when it actually boils down?
Does he have a taste for snapping his fingers and being obeyed?
What is attractive about that to him?
What are his fears here?

Much more likely based on previous experience he didn't realise what she was going to do til to late, then raced towards her going 'nooo!' as she did it anyway.
You live in a house that is being renovated - the renovation and his job and eating and sleeping are all he has time for in fact - but when he is looking after her his attention is not reliably on her every step of the way, and to make up for his inattention it seems he relies on verbal commands. Maybe lots of 'No!' ??
To gain his attention, it is possible that your DD does exactly the thing she knows will get all the attention.

If the house is being renovated then the pair of you need to be far more vigilant than you apparently are because with renovation comes danger to the child, not merely the possibility of mess (which bothers both of you more than it should).

You feel DHs method of handling things needs nipping in the bud because you have personal experience where it's escalated to worse. Obviously I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't know what would happen in the future, but as I say, I feel his tactics are age inappropriate, rather than straight up 'wrong', so I don't think it escalating is an issue.
I do think he needs to learn to deal with it better (as does he), as at the moment he's letting the situations 'get to him'. (It's hard not to at times, I know).
'He's letting situations get to him'

  • This is not the first time a situation has got away from him then.

It's a problem when something like this happens more than about twice.
It makes me wonder about a few underlying issues.
The first is that he genuinely believes parenting a toddler is a matter of making her bend to his will - not the right approach at all.
The second is related to that - that this is his preference to making parenting playful, to getting down on the floor and completely engaging on her level, that he has some precious gravitas to be lost by doing that, that he prefers to be 'He who must be obeyed' rather than 'He who gets things done and is not afraid of looking silly'.
The third is narcissism - the tendency to butt heads with toddlers and in fact anyone who challenges him in any way at all.

----> Overall, the tendency to keep on doing the same thing that didn't work before, yet expecting a different result, is a sign of not being able or willing to learn. Neither are good personality traits to bring to the task of taking care of a toddler or an older child.

  • And also overall, there is the question of fear-based parenting - framing parenting as a problem involving an uncontrollable force and an immovable object will always result in an unhealthy dynamic.
Fear of an uncontrollable force will always lead to problems when dealing with toddlers (and teens and everything in between) and it comes from a narcissistic tendency.

Paying lackadaisical attention and then running up aghast with a Noooo! at the last minute, or too late, is never going to get you anywhere with children of any age. It is piss poor, lazy parenting. It is also a recipe for accidents that could be serious in a home that is being renovated.

And no, you don't have a crystal ball, so don't be so quick with your snippy remarks about posters' 'personal history' implying that nothing like that could possibly happen to you or your child or that people who are saying things you don't want to hear are not capable of reading what you wrote, and have got it all wrong.

You don't think escalation will be an issue - you don't want to think escalation will be an issue - but there are posters here who have seen how it all got started and recognise your situation. They know how it all ended.
Hint: badly.

You keep on saying you have no experience of babies and that H doesn't either. You don't need experience. You need to engage the heart. Your H needs to ditch his fears, accept your instincts and stop looking for authority outside of you. Your baby is not a project like a home renovation. She isn't an uncontrollable menace. Your H needs to come to grips with his fears, with his need to be obeyed.

You are clearly worried that he might easily fall under the spell of A Certain Expert Author or some wacky 'spare the rod' Duggar type on Youtube unless you can find sane, sensible authorities to back up your instincts, so maybe deep down you sense a lack of empathy, a lack of instinct in him that you can rely on. The process of integrating a baby into a house and into a relationship involves the heart as well as the head.
Where is his heart?

LadyHOfH · 07/01/2019 07:33

@mathanxiety, so very well said.

loolooskip · 07/01/2019 13:36

Control control control. I wouldn't be happy if my husband wanted to have complete control over my child of 2.

mathanxiety · 07/01/2019 13:42

And the language of 'united front' - what place has this in a relationship with a baby just about 2?

There is an adversarial mindset behind it that needs to be dismantled.

loolooskip · 07/01/2019 14:26

And the language of 'united front' - what place has this in a relationship with a baby just about 2?

Right. Dh and I are very often not a united front. I'm much more the disciplinarian and way more strict and DH is far too laid back and easy going. We're a great mix as parents (I hope) and both (usually Grin) listen to one another when the other says 'hey dial it down, you're being too harsh' or 'yeah I think letting ds jump off the table is a bit ridiculous'.

Of course parenting is to some extent trial and error and we all will make mistakes. It's admitting to those mistakes that makes us better parents. And when appropriate, apologising to our children unreservedly when we do fuck up.

loolooskip · 07/01/2019 14:28

I want ds to make good choices because he can actually fathom for himself what they are. Not because he's been shouted or bullied in to them.

lunicorn · 07/01/2019 14:37

This is too upsetting to read.

LadyHOfH · 07/01/2019 20:24

@lunicorn, you said what I wanted to say, but in six words.

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