DH huge rows with nearly 2 year old

[MoaningSickness]

So my 21 month old is gorgeous and wonderful and of course, irritating as fuck in that way that only a toddler can be.

I mostly manage not to scream and gnash my teeth when I realise she has managed to smuggle food down her shirt from lunch and lovingly spread in on the sofa, or Andrew puppied the loo roll... But DH is getting increasingly cross with her, for what I consider to be normal behaviour for her age.

I popped out this evening as they went into the bathroom. When I returned, they were still in there, she was wailing, and he gave a massive tirade about how she had done X,Y and Z and made a mess 'even when he asked her not to' and apparently they had been locked in a 45 minute stand off where he said they weren't leaving the room til she tidied away the mess she had made and she was refusing/crying.

I told DH to go take a moment and regain his calm, he accused me of undermining him, I said I would get her to tidy but he needed to calm down, so he went and we tidied.

I tried to talk to him later, but he kept saying she needs to learn she can't make a mess, etc, and I think she is just to young to really get the consequences of her actions. He says she is old enough to understand 'no'.

I don't think it helps that she is very verbal so she appears older than she is. For example she will say 'sorry' if you tell her to, but I don't think she understands the concept of being sorry at all. Or DH will get her to say she promises she won't do X, which she faithfully parrots, but I don't believe she has the faintest idea what a 'promise' is, so it's hardly surprising when she does the thing two minutes later.

I don't want to undermine him, but when I came in and he launched into 'she did this, she did that' it was more like listening to a sibling telling tales on how it is all the other child's fault than a 40 year old talking about a 1 year old.

I think DH and I have very different ideas about the level of behaviour to expect from a child her age, and I don't honestly know which of us is off base. Aibu or is he?

I know not everyone likes reading, I know that lots of people have limited leisure time and reading isnt everyone's preferred way to spend that leisure time. But I point blank refuse to believe that he doesn't have time to read a parenting book. Does he literally work 24/7? Does he never have a single day off? Does he come home, eat, then immediately go to bed? Or does he in fact manage to make time for tv/ sports/ gaming etc and just doesn't like reading? That's fine, but to say he can't read a parenting book because he doesn't have time is bollocks.

You know what, it's a horriblething that's gone on and I agree with some pp that it is bordering on abusive, and if not abusive then problematic and with the potential to become abusive.

Sounds like he needs some guidance. But he has no time the read a book? And no intention of finding one for himself? To acquire the skills he needs to ensure his relationship with his daughter is a healthy one? And he has no time? I'll tell you what-he has no hope in the case. You'll forever be the actual parent, you'll forever be the one remembering everything, making everything happen. It's a fucking cop out and you know it. Decide now if all of this need good enough.

My 19m old can count to 7. He doesn't know what it fucking means though. It's a parlour trick basically.

Using first and then, first we clean then we can have a game of chase

But this is exactly what he was trying to do. I.e. First you put those things back, then we leave the bathroom and go back to playing. But she just refused, and he felt that having made that 'the deal' he then couldn't go back on it.

I hope this thread isn't going to be derailed by arguments about toddlers and their counting skills. It's too important for that. @TwoGinScentedTears puts it very well.

So he helps her, and does it in a fun way. It doesn't matter if he does most of the tidying if she's helping a bit, as long as the next thing doesn't happen until the first thing is done.

When tidying, he makes sure he gives lots of praise for putting something away, and gives lots of positive feedback.

MrsMWA Toddler Taming was my bible 20 odd years ago! Well worth a read.
OP I'm sure he could spare say 45 minutes reading instead of 45mins arguing with a 2yr old. Would be a lot more productive.

So he helps her, and does it in a fun way. It doesn't matter if he does most of the tidying if she's helping a bit, as long as the next thing doesn't happen until the first thing is done.

I did ask him why he didn't do this (which is actually what I did when I went in to her), and he said he was worried that making it a game would encourage her to make a big mess the next time, so they could play at tidying it again.

Basically he wanted to show her 'if you make a big mess you then have to put it away before we go play, so it's better not to make a mess in future', which would be fine as a lesson for a much older child, but is obviously over her head.

I think you're getting bogged down with quasi philosophical and abstract musings about child development, and not thinking about the essential issue, namely your DH's way of dealing with your own daughter.

Well, because I don't think his approach would have been hugely wrong for an older child. It backfired on him because she is a baby who didn't respond in the rational way he was expecting.

Rows are by definition noisy arguments or serious disagreements

I don't know what word to use. 'argument' doesn't really cover it when one participant is 1 and mostly just says 'no!'.

he felt that having made that 'the deal' he then couldn't go back on it.
@MoaningSickness, this is also familiar. We were of the ‘never pick a fight, but if you do, never lose’ camp. DD sound very similar to yours, could also count to 10 at 18 months, capable of some things beyond her 21 months, but still learning some 21 math skills. With us an additional problem was that if you caved even once, she picked up on that, we got away with nothing. In frustration we would do the ‘if you do that, this will happen’ consequences and as they failed, they would get bigger and always in your head you were thinking ‘fuck, we just cancelled Christmas, how do we get out of that without her realising’ 🤔. We learned quickly to make sure the consequences were something we could actually stick to, because if we didn’t stick, it was carnage.

OH also had an issue with the “why can’t you just do as you are told” thing. He’s not a controlling person generally, very laid back, but he can’t understand why she doesn’t go put her shoes on she asks her to put her shoes on. Two and three for us were pretty difficult, I hope you find it easier. But definitely say the phrase “she’s only 2” a dozen times a day.

I also understand the undermining thing. We always ensure a united front is presented. Trying to avoid a good/bad cop situation. Very rarely one of us had to be prepared to be told “step back and take a breath” because those toddlers can really push your buttons, but we were careful not to completely undo the situation.

Have a chat with OH, best of luck.

21 “month” skills - not math!

Children learn through play, the whole point is to make it fun and praise her for being a good girl and helping. She is far far too small to tidy up unaided. She doesn’t understand what he is asking her to do and why he is angry.
He maybe very busy but I suggest he tries to read a book in his lunch hour and before bed to gel him understand how to parent.
Watch out you don’t end up referree and moderator if he has a completely different parenting style to you.

If he doesn't want her to make a big mess next time then he needs to be actively preventing it next time. He presumably sat there whilst she did it this time, and then got into a tizzy afterwards about tidying up.

And he needs to understand that there's nothing wrong with making things light hearted and fun. It doesn't encourage bad behaviour, it's about making interactions pleasant and kind, not stern and authoritarian.

The next 16 years will be very long and unhappy.

He presumably sat there whilst she did it this time

Why are you 'presuming' such utter bullshit? Frankly tired of all the 'lets just make up things' comments.

I wasn't there, but that scenario is not remotely likely. Much more likely based on previous experience he didn't realise what she was going to do til to late, then raced towards her going 'nooo!' as she did it anyway.

Also, thanks Yabbers, your comments have been some of the most helpful on the thread.

Aren't you glad you vented OP. I'm surprised you haven't got a LTB or two. Maybe this would have been better received in a parenting thread not AIBU, but I do understand other threads are undersubscribed. I'm sure a bit of communication may clarify your parenting expectations of each other. Good luck going forward.

OP my now 4 year old was an incredibly precocious child. She could count, identify each letter, etc as well as speak in sentences at 21 months. It is EASY especially when it is your first child to expect too much from a baby like this as they seem so much older. In retrospect DH and I certainly did a few times. I choose my battles and follow through consistently on the ones I’ve chosen but I chose a few wrong ones and I’m sure will again! It is not outrageous to expect an almost 2 yr old to tidy up their belongings - it’s teaching good habits early. My 20 month old DS clears up his toy messes but in reality it’s mostly me sitting with him and making a game out of every. single. item. Your DH needs to understand that despite her advanced abilities she’s only little and doesn’t truly understand as much as it might seem she does. This age is difficult. If he readjusts his expectations I am sure things will be fine. Something my husband and I try to intentionally practice is saying several positive/praising things to our children for each correction ie “Oh what a clever girl you are tidying up! Did we have so much fun playing? Let’s put this toy where it belongs now. No, not there, over here. Great job!” it’s a little tedious but it helps us be mindful to use more encouraging and pleasant words.

How were his parents with him, when he was a child?

@MoaningSickness, please read and reread LadyHofH's post of Wed 02-Jan-19 22:42:55.
I also recognise the scenario of the parent who starts 'tale-telling' about what the child has said and done. I know it is more or less impossible to get your mind round the fact that the man you love/d enough to have children with is able to act like this. You think it must be an anomaly. He had just had a bad day. He hadn't had enough sleep. He was upset about something else, and was taking it out on her. All small children can be really annoying. Etcetera.

...you need to make it crystal clear to him that he has to change the way he deals with toddler behaviour NOW. Everyone can have a horrible day and there can't be a parent alive who hasn't done things they regret. But this kind of behaviour isn't a spur of the moment thing: it is something that becomes entrenched. It will damage your daughter if it is allowed to persist. Please don't let it.

And also TwoGinScentedTears Wed 02-Jan-19 22:55:53
You know what, it's a horriblething that's gone on and I agree with some pp that it is bordering on abusive, and if not abusive then problematic and with the potential to become abusive.

Sounds like he needs some guidance. But he has no time the read a book? And no intention of finding one for himself? To acquire the skills he needs to ensure his relationship with his daughter is a healthy one? And he has no time? I'll tell you what-he has no hope in the case. You'll forever be the actual parent, you'll forever be the one remembering everything, making everything happen. It's a fucking cop out and you know it. Decide now if all of this need good enough.

He is 'open to suggestions' but he wont actually take the time to follow up on any. And apparently your word, your gut feeling, all based on your better knowledge of your DD because of spending more time with her, your admonishment of him - none of that is enough.
Good luck to you so, and most of all good luck to your little girl.

Having read the bit about teaching her to count at 18 months, I am more confident in using the word narcissist for your H.
Why did he do this?
What was he afraid of when he did this?
Your daughter is not a performing pony. She is a multi dimensional, unique individual, with her own contribution to make to your family and to the community and the world. She is not an empty vessel and she doesn't just pour forth what has been put into her by you or by her father, and she doesn't jump when he snaps his fingers. She has her own opinions and will only have more as time goes on. She is not an extension of his personality.

Your daughter is not a mirror reflecting back her father's projection of who she is and who he is, making him proud of himself for being the father of such a bright little spark at one point and 'slowly getting angrier' (your words) with her when - lo and behold! - she has opinions and she doesn't respond to orders.

I know you don't want to believe this is abusive, and I know the word narcissist is going to make you feel you have to defend him, but people with healthy personalities don't escalate situations with their toddlers more than once or twice. They learn to recognise a mistake, they chalk it up to experience, they figure out better ways of dealing with their toddlers.

And if either of you think his approach will work for older children, I have news for you...

Your H needs to identify and come to grips with the fears that are propelling him down this path of teaching his DD tricks like counting and incredibly unrealistic expectations of her emotional and psychological maturity. The parent who paints himself into a corner and escalates a conflict with a two year old is engaged in fear based parenting.
Would he be able to accept that he was the parent of a child who was 'average'?

Setting unrealistic expectations is a trait of narcissist parents. Children in a home where there are unrealistic expectations are living in an emotionally dangerous environment.

*Wrt the couch, and your DD attempting to jump off it - put the couch cushions on the floor and let her try jumping. She will be able to do it in a few weeks.

@MoaningSickness don't mean to be upsetting and sorry that I've made you angry. All I meant was that she got into the situation where she made a mess and that at 21 months it's up to any adult supervising to prevent that if that's not acceptable to them.

@MoaningSickness I totally see how this scenario came about, toddlers are frustrating and when I've had a bad day I've sometimes launched into "they did this, this and this!" the minute DH walked in the door. I think some people are making a lot of assumptions about him
losing it and screaming at her for nearly an hour when that clearly isn't what you said. I'm sure by now he'll have realised that trying to get her to pick up toys for 45 minutes served no purpose to either of them and will try a more age appropriate strategy next time.

OP you have my sympathy, people don't seem to have read your updates or have read them and chosen to day you are minimising the issues in them rather than thinking you could have exaggerated or used the wrong terminology in the original post, but that is typical mumsnet.
For what it's worth both our children at that age they are now 4 and 2 so not long enough ago for me not to remember and their cousin 23 months did understand the word no and did tidy up although it was a lot easier to tidy with them.
We have always been careful to have consequences that we can keep to e.g. no screen time or taking a particular toy away if they were damaging it, never something we can't keep to e.g. not visiting granny lr not going on holiday.
I can see where your husband was coming from but he needs to join in with the tidying to show Dd how it is done and to make it a less stressful experience for all involved and we all, hopefully learn from these experiences, I would wait until he's had time to reflect then discuss it when you both have time and are relaxed.

So what do you plan to do?

@mathanxiety your last comment is brilliant, I completely agree 👍👍

Well, because I don't think his approach would have been hugely wrong for an older child

@MoaningSickness I really would nip it in the bud now. IME, this kind of stand-off with a toddler does not bode well for dealing with older children. I can understand why you are being defensive (I would have been, too, when my DC were little), and I'm sorry if you think that people are exaggerating/having a go at you. I'm certainly not, and I don't believe that your DP was 'arguing with a toddler' or 'ranting at her' for 45 minutes.

I will say, though, that my DH's dealings with the DC started like this - in a relatively benign way - and escalated. Only one of them really wound him up (said DC was/is very difficult). It got to the stage when I was too frightened to leave the house in case there was a problem between XH and DC. I don't want to detail any more on a public forum, but I really would advise you and your DH to take some kind of positive action now. However busy he is, he needs not to be too busy for this.