To have fallen out with my brother today

[Iswallowtoothpaste]

My DB has a little girl’s whose just turned 2. We have a 5 YO DD who can be noisy, energetic and ever so slightly irritating at times but there’s no nastiness with her. She’s lovely and gentle with her little cousin.

My brother has been going through a hard time recently, he’s split with his GF who has gone back to her ex, fair enough, not the best of thugs to have to go through.

I’ve noticed recently that he’s been really quite short with DD. Sometimes it’s maybe called for example being if she’s getting in Dniece’s face a bit much but other times it feels like he’s snapping because he doesn’t like her.

If she tries to give him a cuddle he recoils - just recently I get the feeling that he absolutely dispises her.

Last week he’d snapped at her yet again so I’d snapped at him back and asked what his problem was. He said nothing and that he was just having a bad day so I reminded him that I wasn’t DD’s fault that he was having a bad day and that I wouldn’t dream of snapping at his little girl like that.

Today he came round again with DN. He changed her nappy as soon as he got here. DN was still laid on the floor and trying to pull her shoes off. DD went over and pulled her shoes off for her, we have a rule about no shoes in the house and DD was talking about this rule as she took the shoes off. My brother then walks back into the living room whilst DD is taking the shoes off and tells her to stop taking them off as he’s just put them back on. DD replies ‘but we have a rule that we’re not allowed to wear shoes isn’t thw house.’ I’m absolute mortified by what happened next, he grabbed my DD and plonked her down, pretty much from mid air with no care whatsoever, she stumbled back, didn’t hurt herself but it was the manner in which it was done. He had a face like thunder and it was quite aggressive like he couldn’t control his temper. He then snatched the shoes off DD and swore at her. I’ve told him to get out of our home. I wouldn’t dream of doing that to my own child never mind someone else’s.

I’m so upset for DD. After he’d gone she said ‘he hates me, doesn’t he?’

There’s no nastiness in her at all. She shares and plays nicely and is so gentle with younger children. Even her teachers have commented on how lovely she is with the younger children in the school.

I’m so upset and shocked by his behavior.

"Wordthe

the newborn is an extension of you
he took an instant dislike to her because he already dislikes you and therefore it follows that he dislikes anything that comes out of you"

A baby is its own unique person from birth. That's ridiculous "logic". I absolutely loathe my sister because she's an evil, narcissistic, manipulative hag, but I love all 3 of her children. The first 2 I saw in the hospital after she gave birth and I instantly loved them. The 3rd I didn't meet until he was almost 1. I don't love my sister at all.

@iswallowtoothpaste your poor daughter and at such a you g age his behaviour would have been both upsetting and confusing! I hope your brother seeks some sort of help for his issues and can find it in him to apologise your dd. The thing about him ever liking her though does worry me.
At least she has something to look forward to with baby, did you find out the sex? Did they put your date back? I thought we were due around the same time but I'm 26+3 now. This one is another little girl. I already look and feel 40 weeks though haha if you need to chat x

OP, your DB said your mother was exaggerating when she said he drinks most nights and is aggressive, and punches holes in the wall. Just wondering if after your conversation with your DB what you've decided to believe?

Bluejag I have said the brother was 100 in the wrong and should not be near children. That does not also mean that the 5 year old was not being rude by quoting house rules at him while taking his daughters shoes off. If he told her not to do it she should have stopped doing it.

@Happypie

Why do you insist on pressing your point? 5 year olds are rude sometimes, so what, they're still very little so they get things wrong? You've agreed that the OP's DB was out of order, leave it at that. He has a history of swearing at the OP's DD, and she's picked up on the fact that he doesn't like her.

If it was a woman he was being aggressive towards and someone tried to minimise it by saying that she was rude, we would call it victim blaming. Why is it more justified with a little girl??

That does not also mean that the 5 year old was not being rude by quoting house rules at him while taking his daughters shoes off. If he told her not to do it she should have stopped doing it.

I disagree.

It's an extreme example I know, but the minimising of male violence and aggression shows how things can escalate to Baby P level of abuse. His mum's boyfriend thought he was rude for not staying in place.

5 year olds are still small children.

They are told rules, and they pass them on. They copy what their parents do like help you off with shoes. They are not being rude.

Sometimes one person tells them to do one thing and another person says something else, so it is confusing for them. A reasonable adult will make allowances for this, not lose their temper.

Db doesn't sound as if he is capable of controlling his temper over even minor slights. He also doesn't seem to be able to make any attempt to be kind or loving to his niece.

@Consolidateyourloins

I agree sadly, I'm speaking as a childhood victim of abuse, too. It's depressing how many posters continue to try to blame a 5 year old girl for her uncle losing his temper.

5 year olds are very matter of fact. My own DD knows we have a shoe rack at the door, you take your shoes off. She will happily inform anybody who doesn't remove theirs & will show them where the rack is. She isn't being rude or cheeky, she is passing on the house rules. That in our house apply to anybody who visits (emergency professionals notwithstanding of course). If somebody decided to manhandle her for 'being annoying' for passing this info over they'd be manhandled out of the door. There is no excuse, ever, for this sort of behaviour

It would’ve been different if a man had done this to a woman.

It would also have been different if a boos for this to an employee. Or a doctor to a patient. Or pretty much any other scenario.

Ridiculous to compare this to an adult and child. That's such a precious argument to make. We don't treat children like fully grown adults and neither should we.

No, we don't. But my point was that swearing at a child is equally wrong as swearing at an adult, actually more so. What the OP's DB did was in no way discipline, it was abuse.

Actually, that wasn't a quote from me, I don't think. But just stop trying to defend the indefensible. It was wrong, end of.

I agree sadly, I'm speaking as a childhood victim of abuse, too. It's depressing how many posters continue to try to blame a 5 year old girl for her uncle losing his temper.

So sorry about what you went through Lizzie48

OP, sorry this has happened and I’m sorry your thread was derailed about shoes. MNers are weird about this topic.

It doesn’t matter even if your daughter was cheeky or naughty or rude. It’s irrelevant and I can’t believe people think this may be an excuse. It’s never an excuse for an adult to swear at and attempt to physically assault a 5 year old. Poor kiddo.

@Consolidateyourloins

Thank you for your kind words.

I hasten to add, I'm not accusing the OP's DB of being an abuser. But her DD has been upset by him and her feelings should be listened to. Children should feel able to disclose to us when adults have hurt them/frightened them. Otherwise they won't feel that they can trust the adults who are supposed to be protecting them.

There I am speaking from experience; DSis and I suffered SA at the hands of my F and others, and my DM doesn't understand why we never told her. But she never stopped my F from smacking us too hard and she smacked us herself. So why would we trust her to protect us from him?

This thread has seriously been awful regarding victim blaming! Can you imagine a man had roared at and picked up a woman and thrown her onto the ground? Everyone would be horrified! I can picture the responses now- call the police, LTB, once abusive always abusive! If anyone dared to say that it was the woman’s fault because she was irritating, or because she was annoying, or she was messing about- those posts would likely be removed by Mumsnet for blatant victim blaming!

Yet grown adults are being abuse apologists after a tiny girl of FIVE has been assaulted and roared at by a sociopath, who has detested her from birth! Children have the same rights to be treated with respect as adults do! There is NEVER an excuse for ABUSE This is a product of smacking! Can you imagine a grown woman was put over her husbands knee, had her pants pulled down and her buttocks skelped for perceived rudeness or bad behaviour?! People would be up in arms at this abuse. Yet will state proudly ‘a good smack never did me any harm’- funnily enough they don’t say the same on threads about woman who have been given a black eye by their partner- no call of ‘a good punch never did me any harm’.

I find it utterly depressing that so many people justify abuse and aggression against a small child, victim blaming despite the OP repeatedly posting that her daughter had done NOTHING wrong! Other than to help her little cousin who was struggling to remove her own shoes. I would be praising my daughter for her kindness in that situation and praising her for explaining the house rules!

OP I have just read your post about your Father. Unfortunately it seems that your brother is a carbon copy of your Father. Don’t excuse him by thinking he is behaving this way because of your Fathers abuse. He is behaving that way because he like his Father, is a sociopathic abuser! Likely a narcissist too! He is a dangerous man! I would be going completely NC in your situation! I would not be at the other end of the phone for a man who has admitted to detesting my tiny daughter from birth!

@ClaireElizabeth, I agree totally

admitted to detesting tiny daughter from birth - this was especially chilling

Thank you for saying that, @ClaireElizabethBeauchampFraser I was so depressed by the victim blaming myself. It's precisely for that reason that children don't disclose serious abuse, they think they'll be in trouble.

I echo your comments. Some really pathetic things said on this thread.

It would be a cold day in hell before brother saw my child ever again.

As if his behaviour in your home wasn't/isn't bad enough, admitting that he's disliked your DD since birth (to put mildly) would be the final straw. I'd never speak to anyone again who was so openly disdainful of my child/ren.

Frankly, my brother would be dead to me after all this.

It's also just a matter of time before her hurts his own daughter.

We don't treat kids like adults we treat them more carefully than we treat adults. It's much worse to swear or manhandle a child than an adult. 100% unacceptable.

I don't think we can say why he dislikes OP'S DD. Might be an ott protection instinct towards his child, jealousy, misplaced resentment towards op. It's just not possible to say over the Internet. It's definitely unacceptable though and I wouldn't allow him near my child.

We don't treat kids like adults we treat them more carefully than we treat adults. It's much worse to swear or manhandle a child than an adult. 100% unacceptable.

Definitely this, very well put.

I also think you should keep your DD away from him, too. It's hard, and you'll potentially get criticised for it (it will make you doubt yourself), but your priority is your DD not an adult who is throwing a jealous hissy fit.

He said he’s never ‘warmed’ to DD especially since she was born.

You are handling this amazingly well. I don't think there would be any way back if my DB came out with that.

Even if OP'S DD had been behaving absolutely terribly (which she wasn't) it doesn't justify dB manhandling her or swearing at her. All kids have bad days and behave awfully sometimes. Can't handle it? Don't bring yourself around kids. Absolutely no excuse whatsoever.