to think i'm not a hypocrite to turn DD forward facing?

[ThumpityThumpThump]

I am very vocal about using HBB as long as possible and that ERF is safest and best practise to age 4.

DS1 (9) is still in a HBB despite being over 135cm as he doesn't fit the main seat in my car safely yet (seat belt too high on him, knees dont bend properly over seat edge). He is the only one in his year still in a HBB.

DD is just 3 and currently ERF in a joie 360 spin. This is the only ERF we could afford (it's cheaper as its an all in one with the base, so isofix only, no option to use a seat belt).

Due to the car we have I cannot move the ERF seat further away from the seat back to give more space and as DD will not cross her legs her knees are up around her ears. She is now starting to shout/scream about how uncomfy she is.

So I plan to persevere through christmas as its a dangerous time to be on the roads and then turn her FF in Jan. She weighs 14kg (2st.4lb), wearing age 4 clothes so 'big' for her age.

I have been getting some grief from friends when i've mentioned this and they are calling me a hypocrite for turning her 'early' as i always 'go on' about how ERF is better.

AIBU to think that as DD is a large 3 year old, the size of a 4 year old and clearly very uncomfy in the seat now that turning her FF (in the same seat) is not hypocritical and I have done the best I can?

I just can't see how I can keep her ERF any longer as much as i want to, her knees are genuinely up by her chin

Ah, she could cross her legs but is refusing. She’s trying it on op, I wouldn’t be turning her around, I’d be telling her to sit nicely or you’d stop the car. What would you do if she was screaming about wearing a seatbelt?!

I have to agree with the majority... You probably have come across quite preachy even if you didn't intend to, maybe try to be more conscious of how you express what you think are the correct choices for your child.

I also don’t understand how having legs up by head could possibly be safe in a crash

I have to say this does sound unsafe. Have you spoken to someone trained in car seat safety about this?

My query would be whether the guidelines stating age 4 are set based on the average height of a 4 year old or something that happens to a childs bones at this age. If it's size related then you have not been hypocritical anyway. If it's bone related and you are moving her rather than get yourself into debt then frankly yes that is hypocritical if you have been telling all your friends how crucial it is to be rearfacing.

Personally though my eldest two were turned to forward facing before they were 3 and though we will try and keep dd2 rear facing for as long as possible I won't fret if we decide it's right to turn her before 18kgs.

You make the best choices you can and you're allowed to change your mind - don't beat yourself up about it.

FWIW we bought a hugely expensive ERF Recaro zero.1 that swivels to last us until DS was 4. Sadly he hit 19kg at 24 months and we took the decision to get a FF seat that had a 5 point harness up to 25kg but would do up to 36kg with the seat belt. Given how fast he was growing that was a better decision for us rather than getting an ERF seat that only lasted to 25kg.

As long as you're thinking carefully about your choice and it's the best one for you and your children in your circumstances then that's fine. And I don't think it's hypocritical to make the compromise between your principles and the reality you're faced with. Your friends should be a bit more understanding!!

Will she sit with her legs crossed when she’s not in her car seat? I’m just wondering whether there is any physical reason she finds it uncomfortable? My 8yr old sits crossed legged in her HBB because it’s more comfortable (takes her shoes off for long journeys).

Are you moving to a ff harness, as I wouldn’t trust a 3yr old not to take their arms out of a HBB with a seat belt.

For what it’s worth my older dd stayed rf until 4yrs & I needed the seat for younger dd. Younger dd was in it until just before she was 5, she only moved out of it because we had to change cars & the seat didn’t fit. If you use a big convex(?) mirror then they have a really good view around & you can make eye contact/ see what they’re up to in your rear view mirror. Neither of them had a problem with it being rf rather than ff because that’s what they were used to.

Perhaps they are gently teasing you and you're taking it seriously because you actually do feel anxious about her being FF? It's like when DS2 was tiny he had to have formula and DH made one slight mistaken joke comparing my breastmilk to a healthy but nonfilling salad and formula as "the good stuff" and it felt terrible. He thought I'd find it funny. I think your friends are possibly expecting you to grin sheepishly and say "Alright I did go on about it a bit didn't I, never mind."

TBH although I am definitely a supporter of ERF and think it makes sense to RF as long as reasonably possible I do think this "ERF until 4 or bust" attitude is unhelpful, and that there comes a point where it is more urgent to consider other factors even as "trivial" as comfort and preference. Not yours, but I assume you've been on the FB groups, forums etc and there where it is sometimes very dogmatic I think it's a problem. RF is safer, it always will be, but I do think there's a point it's OK to go with safe enough, and that point from all the evidence I've ever found comes at more like 2 years than 4. I don't really even know where this age 4 thing comes from except that it is supposedly the upper span of a Group 1 seat, which IRL has never been that clear cut as most children outgrow these seats some time during the year before they turn four, and some during the year before that. I have seen some groups now creeping up to 4.5/5 with again, seemingly no rationale for the change. I find it baffling - it doesn't seem to be linked to profit/marketing for car seats so I don't know what the motivation is behind this.

The 5x safer figure was found to be flawed, small study size, unreliable data. The deaths attributed to too-early forward facing spike at a year, they are not increased later. I think you're right also to worry about adverse positioning in the seat. Sometimes there are factors other than travel direction which factor into safety, a fact which is lost under a blanket "ERF until 4" insistence. (I won't even call it a recommendation, that implies something optional.)

I have other issues with these groups but certainly if the advice is giving you anxiety when it is wholly impractical to follow, it's not helpful, and I find that a problem particularly when it's not even (good) evidence based.

Obviously you must turn her. You can't have her that uncomfy it's madness. I wouldn't want my legs crossed in a car for all that time either.

I would review your son's searing arrangements too if you think he isn't sitting comfortably (not if he's fine obviously!)
My dd is 150.cm though so sits without a car seat as now it's safer for her.

Ds is nearly 5 and sits comfortably in hbb. He has big wide shoulders (they both do, lucky me!), and they both have long bodies as a proportion of height, and the 5 point hardness started to crush him down About six months ago.

You don't want to be causing different problems by scrunching them up in the name of safely imo. If you have a "leggy"/ short waisted child they will likely be more comfortable in the younger style of seat for longer as a high proportion of their height will be leg iyswim.

But a leggy child won't want to be rear facing as their legs will be squashed!

Related question- is there any reason why allnseats in a car, except the driver, don't just face backwards?

Asking out of interest not to make a point!

I think, inadvertently, you have come across as smug and judgemental.

Just turn her round. And learn to shut up about what's important to you - you have many more years of parenting to go and many more decisions you will make differently to your friends, and unless you want to alienate everyone - all of you will have to learn to shrug and get over it and not go on about something.

I had a friend at the weekend tell me that their 11 year old daughter would never wear make up or go out in short skirts until they were 18. I shrugged and said we shall see. Because for me to go oh my god you smug twat are you judging my DD (who is 20 and wears tons of make up when she is going out - that was why friend was commenting - photo of DD with face on for going out) how very dare you - it's better to smile and nod. But I still inwardly will remember and when her DD is dressed up to the nines with a face of make up at 15 or 16 I shall have a nice smile to myself.

Blackteas I think it is just that adults want to be facing in the direction of travel! The Captain Scarlet all-rear-facing car would actually be a lot safer for everyone, adults included. FF is just particularly risky for children with heavy heads and weak neck muscles - I’ve seen a head on car crash which the adults walked away from (one had whiplash and one had some cuts from broken glass and a broken ankle) in which their toddler was dead at the scene from internal decapitation. Once you’ve seen that it sticks with you.

OP I honestly just think that toddlers like whinging about their car seats, front or rear facing. Tell her to cross her legs and stop moaning.

Well according to NCAP until the late 90s car manufacturers (except Volvo) didn't design for passenger safety as it didn't sell. Even Volvos were seen as frumpy, boring cars.

Interestingly people carriers made in the late 90s/early 00s often had the middle row rear facing. However this became unpopular once car booster seats became required as car seats are not safety tested/approved for use on rear facing seats. Even a two way car seat you can't use like this, the manuals are very clear.

Adults do tend to dislike rear facing, I remember finding it fun as a child, also children are not like adults and most don't mind crossing their legs.

Tbh I hate rear facing myself and won't do it on a train (v prone to motion sickness, although not to bad on boats) but I was interested.

Funny that adults likes and dislikes should be taken into account so much when turning all the seats backwards would make it safer for kids.

Haven't RTfT but perhaps worth considering the differences in your children's ages and risk profile. I got to the bit where you said you are restricted in your ERF seat because of the fit with the other seats. Is the risk reduction to your 9 year old from using a HBB outweighed by the risk increase of Ff your youngest? I don't think you'll get a statistical answer but I would have personally felt more comfortable reducing the number of seats in the car and making room for a more appropriate ERF.

And as an aside I would whole heartedly endorse an Axkid minikid.

@TheTroublesomestTribble, please can you provide link for below?

The research that found RF to be 5 times safer has recently been debunked.

Sure - Have a look here

TLDR

Should CPSTs still say that children are five times safer riding rear facing? No. The new study found that the database was not large enough to establish a clear percentage of relative protection rear facing, and thus we cannot use that statistic and others from the Henary, et al, study. Therefore, specific statistics of this sort should no longer be cited and should be phased out of safety materials when updated.

Adults do tend to dislike rear facing, I remember finding it fun as a child, also children are not like adults and most don't mind crossing their legs

What a wildly speculative post!