To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Joss Prior (from article) on Prof Rosa Freedman's harrassment

Helen/Mimmymum- active tweeter / parent of a transchild involved with Mermaids Charity

Dr Adrian Harrop
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412316-Dr-Adrian-Harrop-thread-the-fourth-GMC-do-care-have-taken-it-to-the-next-level

So why the hell should we have to share spaces with the males doing this who think it is?

Males? Aw what, all of the transwomen? Be gone? You men?
Yeah

datun I’ve seen you say that being transgender is a fetish.

If you watch the video of HCP training by Tara Hewitt, she describes how included within the umbrella term 'transgender' are males with cross dressing fetish. (TH makes the point this is male experience)

Verbeena you dont seem to be making much sense anymore. But yes, males can be in lots of different catergories, including transwomen.

You know that Miranda Yardley has said its a fetish for some. Right?

If you watch the video of HCP training by Tara Hewitt, she describes how included within the umbrella term 'transgender' are males with cross dressing fetish. (TH makes the point this is male experience)

Yesh, cos that's what's it all about. Down with this sort of thing.
Be gone with them all because some think like that.

This is a good resurce thread for anyone wishing to understand better.
Including what Datun says / doesn't say:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I’m well aware that stonewall includes cross dressers. That’s not what I was referring too though and datun knows it.

You know that Miranda Yardley has said its a fetish for some. Right?

Miranda Yardley's guest article in AfterEllen published this week:

'Girl Dick, the Cotton Ceiling and the Cultural War on Lesbians, Girls and Women'
(extract)
"You are about to be astonished at the appropriation of the lives, fears and culture of women by today’s most fashionable form of homophobia. This is itself an attack on the sexual and bodily autonomy of all women and especially lesbians, and is not just rubber-stamped by the organizations who are supposed to defend the rights of lesbians and gay men, it is positively celebrated so much that the point behind these organizations is no longer the interests of lesbians and gay men. The point is now the bank account.

It’s a measure of how completely topsy-turvy the transgender debate has made LGB&T politics and organizations that the person writing this piece is a transsexual. I am, however, uniquely placed to be able to write this piece as I am a man who ‘lives as a woman,’ whatever that may mean, and can see exactly how too many transgender rights activists think. And as anyone who has ever participated in social media knows, any criticism of transgender ideology, which we all of us have the right to accept, critique and reject, any deviation from the brain-sucking mantra of ‘trans women are women,’ is met with reports to our employers, threats of physical violence, and threats of rape and death. This is a viciously toxic form of men’s sexual rights activism that has managed to rebrand and reframe itself as a civil rights movement." (continues)

www.afterellen.com/general-news/567823-girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women#zwCyUb2LVHpYEo5q.99

The woman who wrote this article searched her own name on here and discovered a poster had called her a witless handmaiden. She was called a witless handmaiden because she was helping to spread the disgusting lie that feminists were hiding razor blades behind stickers so people would injure themselves if they tried to remove them. Extremist TRAs put a lot of effort into that lie. Some claimed that they themselves had been injured. Some went as far as to include pictures of their injuries, but that didn't work very well because people reverse image searched and found the pictures on google from several years ago. IIRC one of the images was of someone famous's hand and very clearly a different race to the person who posted it. One of them called out the transport police to a railway station toilet. When they got there, there weren't even any stickers, let alone embedded razor blades. The transport police issued a warning about hoax calls.

That lie was concocted and spread in order to make feminists look like a bunch of evil arseholes whose views and concerns don't deserve a hearing or any respect. It was the action of extremist TRAs but it was aided by many people who probably view themselves as moderate, on the right side of history bla bla. Lots of them probably didn't know it was a pack of lies because they really, really wanted to believe it, so of course they didn't spend any time at all checking, and most of them use T**F blocker so they couldn't see any of the posts exposing it as a pack of lies.

An alarming number of those who spread these lies were young women.

Women spreading lies to silence other women.

Lots of people are not sure what handmaiden means. This here is what it means. Eve Livingston is a perfect example of a woman actively facilitating misogyny, which is what a handmaiden is.

If I were her, I'd also want to hang onto the 'witless' label, because the alternative is that she knew she was spreading lies and that looks even worse.

Yesh, cos that's what's it all about. Down with this sort of thing.
Be gone with them all because some think like that.

Thing is Verbeena what male crossdressing fetishists do in the privacy of theirs and other consenting adults spaces is of no concern whatsoever.

Tara Hewitt was training HCPs about cancer treatment for trans people. Tara Hewitt has written ammendments to single-sex ward policies at UHSM and based on Tara Hewitt's lecture and policies, the males with cross dressing fetish who come under the transgender umbrella can/ should be treated in female 'single-sex' spaces.

I think a lot of the 'fear of males' (which I agree happens having been sexually assaulted by one) and 'nobody can change sex' (which I have also made clear I accept as a transsexual) is a powerful argument against self ID. As is the likelihood it would allow in fetishists, who are largely policed out by the current gatekeeping.

But then it is extended into arguing the fact that trans people offend at the same rate as men, based largely on one Swedish study which is not as clear cut as it seems. The data was true for one period when psychiatric care was less good and then the rates decreased once these were stepped up. The author of the study made this clear in an on line chat. I read it all at the time and it was clear they felt the study was being used to prove an argument that the data was never meant to establish. When this is mentioned on here it is suggested that the author was coerced into saying this by trans activists.

Now I did not get that impression from the discussion of the data at the time. But I will agree that IF there was solid data that this is true and transsexual women post GRS offend at the same rate as men my views would change considerably.

I just do not think we are at that point and I totally support any serious investigation of the data to find out.

I would add that, prior to the GRA in 2004, any transsexual woman found guilty of a crime had no legal protection. They were legally male. There was no culture of self ID and pander to beliefs as now. They would go into a male prison. And post GRS and years on hormones would be extremely vulnerable to male assault or rape.

This was, I would have thought, a pretty big deterrent to keep heads down and quietly stay out of trouble. The excellent 1990s BBC movie starring Steve Mackintosh as a TS woman, Different For Girls, covers this angle well when the character ends up at a police station. Watch it and compare with how things are today where any cross dresser is arrested and if they say they are a woman charged as a woman. Obviously nonsensically.

So I am think perhaps we should try to answer this question. I think it is a key one. And I suspect many of those who are going down as trans women in prison are actually sexual predators playing the system. In fact I saw an article the other day where one prison warder said it was a well known game to keep identifying as trans to mess with the system.

This is a key argument over access to spaces like toilets and we need an objective study to answer it independently.

Verbeena still no answer? TBF you are making not a jot of sense.

Miranda Yardley is right about the "fetish for some" thing. I'm not as familiar with all her ideas as perhaps I ought to be, but " fetish for some" presumably implies " but not for some others".

My personal opinion based on a small group of people I have known well enough to form an opinion, is that many transsexual people are not driven by sexual "desires" very much , if at all , at least after things settle down after hormones and surgery.

This fits with a conversation I had with a now retired psychiatrist who had worked in this field. Not being interested in "any of that stuff" is not unusual. That may seem counter intuitive, and will not apply to all, but it does to some.

lass do we really need a study? Why can we not just have a third space?

Here's another academic, Professor Kathleen Stock (Philosophy) also accused of being a transphobic, bigot etc both on campus, in newspapers, social media, by other TRA academics etc etc

she was on R4 Woman's Hour recently as part of their Sex & Gender series, well worth listening to on catch up as presents different 'sides' of many of the key issues

Verbeena you dont seem to be making much sense anymore

Figures, always appens when it's not something you want to listen to.

Because a third space would put a trans man (or biological woman as you would say) in the same space as the trans women AND all the fetishists and sex predators being kept out of the ladies loo. So what we really need is proper assessment to keep them out of contact of ANY vulnerable people. Fighting against self ID and to strengthen (not remove) the gatekeeping and to prevent validation of dangerous people by letting them change identity and making it a clear no way ever that a GRC is given to someone with any kind of sexual offence history. THAT protects everyone rather than transfers the problem that I quite agree women should not be expected to face.

I am not opposed to third spaces. They will have value. But they are going to be slow and costly to create. In the meantime we have a problem now.

This was posted earlier by Calvinsmam. I agree with this and at least one other FWR regular said she did as well.

My position (which makes me an evil terf) is that self id is ridiculous open to abuse and puts women in danger.
That gender disphoria is real and traumatic thing that people with it should have access to medical care, social transitioning, and therapy.
That if you don’t have gender diphoria then you can’t reasonably claim to be trans and shouldn’t be allowed GRC.
That no one should be harrassed or beat up because of the clothes they wear or for not fitting into societies expected gender roles.
That you can’t actually change sex but you have to be called what you like and present how you like.
That women have the right to hold onto segregation by sex in some circumstances.
That a third space should be created where anyone who wants to have a mixed sex facility can go but retain the sex segregation in those circumstances for which it’s needed or wanted by women (or men).

verbeena and earlywalker can you tell me which bits you find transphobic?

Yes good point.

OldCrone can I suggest you read my posts before asking me a question that I’ve responded to many times. Thanks.

So what we really need is proper assessment to keep them out of contact of ANY vulnerable people. Fighting against self ID and to strengthen (not remove) the gatekeeping and to prevent validation of dangerous people by letting them change identity and making it a clear no way ever that a GRC is given to someone with any kind of sexual offence history.

I'm presuming that you mean conviction for sexual offences?

Male pattern sexual abuse/coercive control/DV etc has, as you know, low levels of reporting and very poor levels of prosecuting success.

Plus one issue with third spaces is that they are a good idea in principle. Less so in practice.

Because the ones who will use them by choice are the ones not creating the problems. And the ones who are seeking validation and/or are acting as predators are the ones who will be least likely to use them. They will feel challenged not to by simply being told to go there.

In many ways it might even create the very problem we all fear the most from predatory men by driving that kind of behaviour.

If a way can be found that makes them work and avoids these potential issues, then I am willing to be convinced.