To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

I think the old school activists being activists have that mind. So they have probably kept pushing for rights. They were key in crafting the GRA but it really came about over a European court ruling as I recall.

It would probably be illuminating to see how many of the 4910 who do have a GRC were members of any trans activist group in the past. I suspect not many.

As to why so many do not have GRCs now who are activists. There are probably several reasons. They have to have been assessed and diagnosed of course. Some may not have been. Some might be altruistic in taking a stand to make it widely available to others first. Others may have been later life transitioners and quite a few of them were married to women as men and fathered children.

In those cases they would have had to divorce to get a GRC until quite recently as it created a same sex marriage in law before that existed. I know several chose not to do that.

A GRC was probably more useful to those who transitioned young and who had had long term relationships with men as it created the ability to marry for the first time and legally become man and wife.

That ability had ended in the early 1970s following a court case that also removed the issuing of new birth certificates on one to one medical evidence based decisions that were then possible - also allowing marriages.

This was the last time any trans rights were rolled backwards.

but I'm not being part of the extremism side.

Ok then, what would you like to see happen?

How is our position extreme?
Seriously?

It’s actually the conservative position because we’d like to keep things the way they are now.

you are ? im not saying some concerns arent valid, but i miss when the feminism section was varied and interesting.

How is our position extreme?
Seriously?
It’s actually the conservative position because we’d like to keep things the way they are now.

Women who have wanted to meet to discuss the law and in the majority of cases keep the law as it stands are freely called Nazis, transphobes, bigots, extremists, 'terfs' , right-wing zealots etc
As the OP article explains, MN FWR is 'monitored' & has a constant steam of disruptors.

Which statement is more extreme?

1. People should be able to dress how they like and be called what they like but human beings can’t literally change sex.

2. people should be allowed to change legal sex without any diagnosis of gender disphoria just by signing a form. Any body can change sex and it’s uo to other people to accommodate them in every way into their new sex without question, even if that person is a sex offender. Peoples gender identity trumps their sex.

I don’t see how you could look at those two positions and accuse the people who hold the first one as being extreme.

This is the biggest threat to women (and children) in an age and people are moaning that the feminist board is full of it?

I guess these are the kind of people who follow the herd until THEY get assaulted in a unisex loo or have to share a hospital ward with a man or have to have a smear with a bearded man who claims to be female. And then they will be outraged and wondering why no-one has done or said anything about it.

but i miss when the feminism section was varied and interesting. It will return to being more varied when this singular and immediate legal threat to women's rights has been seen off.

The sooner we get back to gender bending a la 1980s and begin to properly dismantle the gender stereotypes that some people are trying to use to squish us all into tiny, inflexible boxes the better.

And we MUST see it off. It is such a ridiculously regressive ideology.

I have not been able to read all these posts but going back to the original article: I agree that mumsnet is a hotbed for transphobia and I am deeply ashamed it has come to that. I am ashamed for those posting transphobic content and also for the inadequate stance Mumsnet HQ has taken to deal with this problem.

I'd be glad to participate in any non-trans related discussions you start in the FWR board staydazzling. If I see you have started a thread, I'll make a point of reading it.

Oh, well done! Almost a thousand posts in and 'pouf' someone posting like its page 1 again!

whittingtonmum I shall not ask you for evidence because you have none.

But do you really believe that a man who states he is a woman and does not alter his body in any way, shape or form has a female penis? Really?

One of the main sources for the article is Joss Prior, those who don't spend much time on FWR may not be aware of Joss and her 'keen' focus on the board, women's groups, women who have 'put their head above the parapet' etc.

Joss Prior on Posie Parker, feminism, MN FWR etc:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=590&v=0K2Tf0WvF6s

The full video by Posie Parker discussed by Joss:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVHLh218FJo

relevant threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3377721-Joss-Prior-on-Posie-Parker-feminism-Mumsnet-FWR-boards-etc

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3362782-posie-parker-brilliant-rant

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3377022-Standing-for-Women-on-Sky-News-at-4-30

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3377213-Please-MNHQ-overturn-Posie-Parkers-ban

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3375155-Billboard-with-dictionary-definition-woman-adult-human-female-removed-after-pressure-from-TRAs

whittingtonmum

If you want to align yourself with the likes of joss prior, rather than the three transwomen who have spoken on this thread and the group who have written to the times, you go right ahead.

I often can't be bothered to read something, but you know what, I don't then pretend I can have an opinion about it.

Everyone is aware what ‘transwoman’ means

No. They really aren't. Many people think a "trans woman" is FTM. Because they know you can't change sex.

One of the main sources for the article is Joss Prior, those who don't spend much time on FWR may not be aware of Joss and her 'keen' focus on the board, women's groups, women who have 'put their head above the parapet' etc.

Hello Joss. I've moved from songs to poetry now.

If you want to understand the kind of culture that would encourage men to abuse self ID legislation, it wouldn't be a bad idea to start with some of the people involved in Vice.

That's obviously fine for woke intersectional cool girl Eve.

Given that many women are brought up to be constantly seeking male attention and male approval for even their most minute and trivial actions, and it may be dangerous for them to do otherwise.... and that mothers get the privilege of a whole special category of intense social policing and judgement... it probably DOES come across to some rather sheltered(?) people (hi, Vice!) as shocking and unsettling to find women talking to each other who are saying no to men, and who are trying to maintain their personal boundaries and who are trying to work out a way that works for women and children first and foremost.

It probably is quite a shock to hear women -and especially mothers- say: let others work out for themselves what they need and let them advocate for their own needs.

That kind of female attitude is discordant with being ‘feminine’ according to the limited role that ‘femininity’ demands of women, or permits them.

Which some people at Vice magazine seem to find very worrying and challenging. But women asking questions or having boundaries- is not being ‘transphobic’.

The view, found on MN (but in my experience anywhere where groups of women are genuinely free to talk...) is just a truthful recognition that what sex you are matters fundamentally to how your life may be led, particularly in the context of the sexist society that we live in. It’s also incontrovertible that biology creates inescapable differences in our physical needs.

We know that a sexist society then adds a whole other unnecessary layer of shit on top of these objective biological differences.
This is ‘gender’ ie codes of behaviour based on stereotypes of ‘what men should be like’ or ‘women should be like’. (Aka: ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’).

Those gender codes are then used to create a punishing social hierarchy between the sexes, with women at the bottom. The codes also punish anyone (male or female) who steps outside of the gender code being forced on them.

I’d say a lot of people (especially women when we’ve lived long enough to have had sex discrimination at work and unequal pay, sexual assault, rape and daily street sexual harassment, maternity discrimination, and are trying to bring up kids in the knowledge of what the system has in store for them.... see it as absolutely crucial to be able to talk about what they are experiencing and seeing happen. That’s not transphobic.

Tldr; I have every sympathy with anyone who wants to escape gender stereotypes but the trans lobby does nothing to challenge this, and in fact it enforces those stereotypes.

Vice Magazine are clearly not as progressive as they think they are..

However this has been explained countless times, some people enjoy pretending to not understand so they can act like its a silly idea that reduces women.

Oh yes indeed.

Tldr; I have every sympathy with anyone who wants to escape gender stereotypes but the trans lobby does nothing to challenge this, and in fact it enforces those stereotypes.

It's regressive, old-fashioned, common or garden sexism at best, and rank misogyny at worst.

The fact that it's dressed up to be forward thinking and progressive is the gaslighting.

Long, long thread - finally caught up! This was a good post, I thought.

rightreckoner Sat 08-Dec-18 12:16:08
But so what? Why does it matter to you whether a trans woman "passes"? Or has a neo vagina that you don't consider as good as the real thing? So what?

So truth. So not playing into delusional thinking. So not encouraging dysphoric children to think they can become something they are not. So allowing women to say that men are not women. So not gaslighting women with the idea that someone who has had surgery can become them. So being honest with men who want to undergo surgery about what their castration will achieve. So remembering that woman and man have biological meaning and that biology cannot be altered however much you wish it.

The truth does hurt. But it’s better than peddling lies.

A PP said that women weren't educated about their bodies or pregnancy. My reply was, particularly in the UK, it is easy for individuals to get that information for themselves, not sit and wait for someone to educate them.

So if they don't, fuck them? Why do you think education campaigns exist? Given that you're all about the men, why do you think campaigners have worked hard to reach men on prostate cancer and mental health in men?

How is our position extreme?
Seriously?

Pfft. Seriously no point engaging further than that.
Just.
Pffft.
Can't be arsed. Done it to death. Pfft.If you can't see you're extreme, then meh. Whatevs. There's no point.