To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

But saying that some men will seek to abuse self ID doesn't have to involve the physical appearance of a trans woman does it? That is conflating 2 issues.

Making a mockery - our hospital segregates certain areas by sex. A male relative of mine was in there last year with a life threatening condition. They required an emergency procedure but, due to lack of space, the hospital alternates times when males and females are treated eg 1day it's women am and men pm, swapped the next day.

The day that my relative needed treatment he had to wait until the afternoon when it was the men's time, for treatment. This wasn't admitted to us until afterwards.

Depending on how self ID is administered I, and all of my relatives, would declare ourselves gender fluid on admission to hospital and then if such a situation arose again would self ID according to the sex being treated first.

That's what I mean by making a mockery. The system would be nonsense if self ID happened like that.

No it’s answering the thread title.
If you want to claim there’s no transphobia here, so be it. I won’t lie.

But saying that some men will seek to abuse self ID doesn't have to involve the physical appearance of a trans woman does it? That is conflating 2 issues.

Where on this thread have people been making a mockery of the physical appearance of trans women?

Weetabixdo you imagine you are the only person on this thread to miscarry?

No I don't. Nor do I presume that all miscarriages occur in the ladies public toilet though and nor would it have mattered to me whether a toilet was ladies only, mixed sex, unisex or a cubicle. It would have been preferable to the middle of the street. Even so, the location was still the least of my concerns. I wouldn't expect an entire group of people to be banned from a toilet because of it.

I won’t lie.

Oh the irony. You're forcing women to lie, to their detriment. The moral high ground does not belong to you.

Who have I forced to lie?

Where on this thread have people been making a mockery of the physical appearance of trans women?

It's on mumsnet, not just this thread.

I love the way these threads work.

We get asked a question. We answer that question and then that answer gets taken out of context and then extrapolated as an example of how we think about everything.

I wouldn't expect an entire group of people to be banned from a toilet because of it.

Oh stop being so disingenuous. It's not a group of people. It's men from a sex segregated facility.

When this issue was first being discussed and women commented on all the things they use the toilets for, many men were quite surprised. Miscarriages never having crossed their minds. (Most miscarriages happen on the toilet.)

But you still had commentary like, but it's just a body evacuation, like any other. What difference does it make if men are there?

One of the by-products of the #MeToo campaign was the total ignorance that so many men have over women's biology, and how toilets play a part in that.

To them, it's about pissing and pooing. To women, it's far more. And of course, they're not going to know. Why would they?

But once they did know, the minimisation of reducing a miscarriage to a body evacuation, to uphold an ideology tells you all you need to know. And if it doesn't, there is little point in discussing it.

Who have I forced to lie?

Every time you criticise women for correctly identifying biological sex.

When this issue was first being discussed and women commented on all the things they use the toilets for, many men were quite surprised. Miscarriages never having crossed their minds. (Most miscarriages happen on the toilet.)

I don't think it's only men who would be surprised. I think a lot of women would be too and I speak as a woman and one who has had a miscarriage. If asked, it wouldn't be something that I would associate with a public toilet.

(Most miscarriages happen on the toilet.)

And how does anyone know that? Given that many happen even before the woman is pregnant and others will occur in hospital and some mmc will be surgically removed I am surprised to read that "most occur on the toilet".

I thought I would comment on an offline chat I had this morning with a transsexual woman about the letter in the Times today and her reason for not signing it.

She told me that she supported it 100% and would have wished to do so, but she has a husband and family and has been in a quiet and happy work and home relationship for many years. She did not live for decade as an adult man or marry a woman and father children as some trans spokespeople out there do. She has shared a lot of experiences in life with you. Not all, of course, as she would be the first to accept.

The conflict she has is between wanting to do the right thing but knowing that by doing it she turns herself into a figure of hate. And publicly identifies herself to the world.

That is something she had no easy right to inflict on others in her life because they would be impacted by any choice she makes.

She added that if she spoke out for what she believed in that letter the reward would be hate mail, threats for her to lose her job and even personal abuse on her kids. From the trans side.

And from the more extreme thinkers on here - since she has read but as far as far as I know never posted on Mumsnet - her reward would be thank you for seeing the truth - new kindly off to the men's toilet as you are just as likely to be a threat to us as that pervert man claiming to be a woman self identifying in jail.

Something, incidentally, I know she spoke up against.

In the search for balance and reason and understanding it is worth remembering that the trans activists succeed in dominating the agenda partly because the transsexuals who detest their tactics as much as you do see the consequence of condemning them and supporting women, as their instincts may well tell them to do.

That is to be consigned to share spaces with those same misogynistic men creating the oppression despite being long post op and in her case with a body that would put her at the very least in a position of intimidation if not literal threat of harm.

This is a complex situation. And - yes - transsexuals understand biology and that transsexuals literally do not become a woman.

But equally living as we do you understand that biology is one aspect of who you are and if you are perceived as a woman by men and have been for years, as is certainly her position, calling her a man and saying she must go share with other men is a terrifying prospect.

This fear is holding back many transsexuals from joining you to fight self ID I would suspect.

Depending on how self ID is administered I, and all of my relatives, would declare ourselves gender fluid on admission to hospital and then if such a situation arose again would self ID according to the sex being treated first.

So you’re happy to admit that you and all your relatives would abuse self id?

So why is it such a leap to consider that abusive men might take advantage of it too.
Or that Male sportsmen might identify as female just to win a trophy or take advantage of a woman’s scholarship.

This things are totally interlinked.

lassupthebrew

And it's people like your friend that I feel sorry for. It seems like this issue has emboldened some people to voice some ugly views that they otherwise wouldn't have felt was ok to express.

Calvinsmam

I don't disagree with you about self ID. It is a ludicrous proposal and yes, if it is brought in, I will abuse it at every opportunity in order to highlight how ridiculous it is.

Making a mockery - our hospital segregates certain areas by sex. A male relative of mine was in there last year with a life threatening condition. They required an emergency procedure but, due to lack of space, the hospital alternates times when males and females are treated eg 1day it's women am and men pm, swapped the next day.

The NHS claims to segregate by sex but this has been a deliberate lie since 2010
Despite the fact that breaches of single sex accomodation (wards, showers etc) is a performance indicator.
Its 'gender'

This was recently demonstrated by medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6
OP, Barracker wrote:
"They were ALWAYS based upon 'gender'.
The evidence is in NHS documents from 2010.
And the Department of Health were told, by the NHS team, not to tell people wards were segregated by sex, because they knew the policy was based on gender.

But the DOH purposefully used the word sex to the public instead."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

Here is Tara Hewitt explaining to health care professionals who is included under trans-gender policies. Tara Hewitt has been very influential within the NHS as well as Social Care and Higher Education.
Tara Hewitt co-founded TELI with Jess Bradley (NUS, Action for Trans Health) & Michelle Hudson (barrister)

R0wantrees

Well our hospital segregates by sex and it very nearly killed my father. Had he been female he would have been scoped first thing, had his large gastric bleed stopped and not suffered a heart attack due to severe blood loss whilst waiting for the men's turn in the endoscopy suite.

wheet I actually think our positions are pretty much the same but for some reason you seem to think they aren’t.

My position (which makes me an evil terf) is that self id is ridiculous open to abuse and puts women in danger.
That gender disphoria is real and traumatic thing that people with it should have access to medical care, social transitioning, and therapy.
That if you don’t have gender diphoria then you can’t reasonably claim to be trans and shouldn’t be allowed GRC.
That no one should be harrassed or beat up because of the clothes they wear or for not fitting into societies expected gender roles.
That you can’t actually change sex but you have to be called what you like and present how you like.
That women have the right to hold onto segregation by sex in some circumstances.
That a third space should be created where anyone who wants to have a mixed sex facility can go but retain the sex segregation in those circumstances for which it’s needed or wanted by women (or men).

There are very few circumstances where I think it’s appropriate for people to be segregated by sex but those circumstances are so important and I would like the right to retain them.

This. This is it. And this is not hateful or phobic or extreme. it really isn’t.

There aren’t many places and times when it’s important to segregate by sex but when it is, it’s important.

Weetabixandshreddies, it has come as a mighty shock to many TS people who have never been anywhere near an activist movement (the majority) or even have friends who are transsexual. Because they transitioned to live a life and did so outside of any community - just with their own family and friends and work mates as do most people.

Like many women over the past two or three years these transsexuals have been alerted to what is going on by the sudden explosion of media coverage. It has shocked -and - yes - peak transed many of them too.

But the lives they have built bring responsibilities to others. Ones that the self serving trans activists do not have as many of them seem to be rather selfishly driven and well never commit 100% to physical transition (other than a boob job to show off) in the way transsexuals do.

So you have a trans active community who has mostly not got a medical problem and fought their way out of the other side and committed to all the psychotherapy and assessment to take the medical route as their last hope. That is very different in desires, aims, way of living and seems deeply male oriented in its attacks on women. It stands out very obviously to most of those who are the ones that actually are the 4910 with GRCs.

The activists just want GRCs (or rather they want the altered birth certificate that right now you can only get with a medical condition AND a GRC). And they want it without all those 'inconvenient' downsides.

Yet those downsides are actually proper and reasonable safeguards built in to protect society from someone inappropriately transitioning and to protect the inappropriate transitioner from harming themselves and those around them.

That is what happens if you arbitrate yourself something that common sense tells ought to be assessed by someone not close to the emotions and psychological side effects being trans will create and so not best placed to decide what is or is not the best course of action to take.

It is like handing the keys to the medical cabinet to all the patients in a hospital and saying - go take whatever pills you think you need to make you better. Or if none, just go home and self ID as cured.

Well our hospital segregates by sex and it very nearly killed my father. Had he been female he would have been scoped first thing, had his large gastric bleed stopped and not suffered a heart attack due to severe blood loss whilst waiting for the men's turn in the endoscopy suite.

Wait your hospital doesn’t triage paitients but instead has a ‘ladies first’ policy? That’s terrible!

calvins

That’s pretty much my position as well. I don’t think that’s extreme. I think it’s reasonable, pragmatic and fair.

But I have been threatened for expressing it. By men, who want access to all spaces, and who don’t actually seem to like women very much at all.

Re the OP, Its a very poor article.

Helen Joyce (who is the finance editor for The Economist) wrote an excellent one this week. Sadly it has yet to generate as much discussion.

It is well-researched, balanced and nuanced journalism.
Definitely worth reading in order to get a clearer idea of the interconnection & scope of issues.

quillette.com/2018/12/04/the-new-patriarchy-how-trans-radicalism-hurts-women-children-and-trans-people-themselves/

By the way, hospitals have always placed transsexual women on female wards IF they have had GRS. That was true long before the GRA became law. Pre GRS they were given side rooms if in transition.

But those who are transsexual have medical records that establish their physical status and birth sex.

Self ID is again the problem because it argues that you can be medically recorded as a woman just by saying so even if nothing at all about your body has been changed.