To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Weetabixandshreddies
I am sorry to hear about your Dad's experience.

That a hospital has male /female sessions and spaces does not (despite what most of us would presume) mean that they segregate by sex.
Its 'gender'. Which includes self-id gender so not sex.

Wait your hospital doesn’t triage paitients but instead has a ‘ladies first’ policy? That’s terrible!

It isn't always ladies first, to be fair to them (which given the circumstances is very difficult). One day it's ladies first, the next day men first.

But yes, for endoscopy (can't speak for anything else) it isn't clinical need but sex which decides who goes first. It actually beggars belief and was the first point that I raised at the complaint meeting that we had with PALS and senior consultants.

Apparently it was brought in to maintain dignity in recovery though given the choice I'd rather suffer a slight indignity but be alive than be dead with my dignity intact.

By the way, hospitals have always placed transsexual women on female wards IF they have had GRS. That was true long before the GRA became law. Pre GRS they were given side rooms if in transition

Changes to single-sex accomodation hospital policies already allow for males to self-id into spaces intended for women.

The NHS does not have clarity on sex/gender identity.

Why on earth would someone WITHOUT gender dysphoria want to be trans? It makes no sense.

If it’s as traumatic as it’s made out to be (which I have no doubt it is) then why wouldn’t you want therapy and medical care during your transition?
Who is pushing for self id and why??

The poor people with gender dysphoria are stuck in the middle and it’s really not on.

R0wantrees

In all honesty it doesn't make any difference in this situation. Whatever a patient identifies as will affect whether they wait for treatment or not a nd actually, if it is gender (and self ID) it makes it worse because in that case there is no justification for risking someone's health like that based on self ID.

Apparently it was brought in to maintain dignity in recovery though given the choice I'd rather suffer a slight indignity but be alive than be dead with my dignity intact.

Dignity, safety and privacy are very important though. Especially when in hospital.

It would seem that in the emergency circumstances your Dad was in, an additional protcol should have meant that he did not have to wait.

Dignity, safety and privacy are very important though. Especially when in hospital.

They are important but not life threateningly important.

They are important but not life threateningly important.

Yes which is why she said

It would seem that in the emergency circumstances your Dad was in, an additional protcol should have meant that he did not have to wait.

They are important but not life threateningly important.

The awful situation with your Dad's treatment is a separate issue.

In (what is described as) single sex hospital accommodation eg wards, showers then safety, privacy and dignity are incredibly important.

The majority of people in the UK has very good reason to expect that they are singe sex because this is what they have been told.

It matters a lot hence why the policy is a performance indicator.

This can apply to closed psychiatric wards as well as reported:

'Lancaster mum with “fear of men” locked on hospital ward with transgender patient'
(extract)

"A Lancaster mum whose bi-polar disorder left her believing men were conspiring to kill her said she was left terrified when she was locked on a women’s psychiatric ward with an “extremely male-bodied” transgender patient. Philippa Molloy, 42, said she was “genuinely, absolutely terrified” because she had suffered a relapse in her condition that made her irrationally terrified of men – including her own husband.

When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”. She said the NHS had failed to think through the implications of allowing patients to self-identify their gender.

“The rights of that trans person to feel safe were put above the rights of me to feel safe as a natal woman,” she said." (continues)

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-1-8963648

I'm imagining the comments on a 1918 Mumsnet: "I do wish those ladies would act more ladylike and know their place. It is all getting rather boring and repetitive now".

Indeed

‘I almost signed the petition to get women the vote because I agree with it, but when I saw how mean you all were I didn’t’

Just a matter of interest, Calvinsman, I know several of the transsexuals who post on here signed the petition to give women's groups a say in the GRC Self ID consultation that was launched on here. And also the petition against Stonewall self ID policy that was linked on here too.

Oops, typo sorry, Calvinsmam - would not want to be accused of transphobic misgendering of you. :)

I don't think anyone cannot make a distinction between men with gender dysphoria and chancers, opportunists and fetishists. As a concept.

The problem is we can now no longer make that distinction at the coalface, as it were.

Highlighting the chancers and why they are exploiting the law is not transphobic. Complaining that it tars tw with the same brush is wrong and manipulative.

It doesn't.

But until you can risk assess on a basis other than biological sex, it doesn't matter that there is a distinction in the concept - that we can all agree on.

And no-one disagrees that lifelong transwomen wouldn't face discomfort in the men's facility.

The argument is that shouldn't mean we dismantle single sex provision, because that's what will happen, is happening.

The only solution that suits both is a third space. Both the concept and the practical arrangements.

If every transsexual and all women campaigned for that, we might stand a chance of the compromise that many are seeking.

Frankly, it is beginning to happen.

Just a matter of interest, Calvinsman, I know several of the transsexuals who post on here signed the petition to give women's groups a say in the GRC Self ID consultation that was launched on here. And also the petition against Stonewall self ID policy that was linked on here too.

I have no doubt at all that that’s true.
I also personally know some transsexuals who feel horrified at the thought of self id (and the fact they are supposed to call themselves transgender).
I said earlier upthread but it’s difficult to keep track of everyone.
My mother is bisexual and lived with a woman for most of my childhood (from between 3-13) so I spent my formative years in the bosom of the gay community. I have always had trans women around me and love many dearly.
They were always clear that they felt their gender was female but they were biologically Male.
It was always explained to me as ‘so and so feels very strongly that they would like to be a woman so we all pretend they are to be nice and kind’ and then once you knew someone for a bit their sex became irrelevant because they just were them. The times someone’s sex matters is so small it barely comes up.
I’ve never ever had a problem with trans people, and it makes me weep to see what a shit show self id has created.
The thought of me being considered a transphobe is truly revolting to me, I have fought alongside trans women for their rights literally my whole life.

Who does this new aggressive TRA movement benefit?

Not women, who are seeing their hard won rights and protections threatened, and being threatened themselves for speaking up.

Not children, who are being told that if they don’t meet gender stereotypes there’s something wrong with them.

Not children who are questioning their gender - the guidance for schools etc from the lobby groups like mermaids will actually place those children outside the safeguarding framework.

And not transsexuals, who have been quietly getting in with life for years without a fuss and are now being lumped in with some very questionable characters under the stonewall umbrella. They must be fearing a backlash and it’s so unfair for them that they would be targeted for this.

So who does it benefit?

Exactly babel

I think the problems started with the drift away from psychotherapy as a first stop towards medical transition. The thing most desired to be rid from all the assessment - even though, self evidently I would think, if your mind and body are at war over status then you have to be very self centred or foolish not to think something is wrong and maybe you should try to find out what before changing your passport and name and buying a few dresses.

Yet this is the prevailing mood and even Theresa May has bought into the 'not a medical matter' ideology.

That assessment is in my view 100% essential to understand yourself and give that pause for consideration to know that if you do transition it is the right thing. It also brings realism to know what is or is not possible and decide your future based on actuality not dreams and fairy tales.

It is not at all a coincidence I suspect that as this has diminished we have seen the old school transsexuals morph into the transwomen are women or else trans activists who think only they know what is truth and going near doctors or psychiatrists is an insult and an imposition.

I do wish some doctor out there would do a study to compare groups who went through the gatekeeping at its strongest versus those going through it recently and the ones who shun gatekeeping and will only apply for a GRC if it s handed to them for free.

Would that not be a sensible first step before deciding to abandon something?

Right now government seem to be not looking for objective evidence or the words of those who did go through this process. I do not know anyone they have asked. Instead they are basing policy on the word of those who either could not or would not follow these procedures because they say they are too hard.

That is a bit like deciding to allow everyone to only pay taxes if they feel it is acceptable. But if it might cause them not to have a holiday in Benidorm next year then they can say they cannot afford to pay so they are self declaring as being owed a rebate.

It is not at all a coincidence I suspect that as this has diminished we have seen the old school transsexuals morph into the transwomen are women or else trans activists who think only they know what is truth and going near doctors or psychiatrists is an insult and an imposition.

I do wish some doctor out there would do a study to compare groups who went through the gatekeeping at its strongest versus those going through it recently and the ones who shun gatekeeping and will only apply for a GRC if it s handed to them for free

There are prominant activists though who one might presume were 'old school transsexuals' eg Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns, Sarah Brown, Helen Belcher etc.

Press For Change's lobbying led to the 2004 GRA and it seems that a lot of those involved then are also at the heart of the shift.

Given how many transsexuals have said they don't want / need a GRC but could obviously get one, I'm genuinely a bit confused.

I think there’s a few things going on
I agree with lass, and I also think stonewall have a lot to do with it.

After gay people won the right to be married they needed something else to keep their funding up. Trans sexuals are a very small minority so in order to create a big enough movement they had to ‘widen the umbrella’.
It’s what happens when single issue charities become huge businesses, they have to keep going.

They changed the meanings of all the terms so when people heard trans person they thought of someone like lass and not a Phillip Bunce so when people objected it sounded like they were horrible bigots.

The tories riding high on gay marriage thought it would be a nice feel good piece of legislation that would show them to be less nasty, and also allow them to demedicalise gender dysphoria which could legitimately stop the NHS from having to fund therapy and transitioning (because don’t think for a second the tories won’t do this).

Trashy articles like the one in the opening post claiming this site is a hotbed of transphobia, are shutting the mouths of women and transsexuals.

Everybody understands gender dysphoria and everybody understands why men who had it, transitioned.

But being horrified at misgendering, aghast at people taking apart the ideology, and denigrating women for maintaining that biology is the root of their oppression, is not helping anybody except the myriad of dodgy characters who have now proliferated across social media, under the heading of transgender.

There are prominant activists though who one might presume were 'old school transsexuals' eg Stephen Whittle, Christine Burns, Sarah Brown, Helen Belcher etc.

Perhaps it's as mundane as old fashioned, ingrained sexism, with a side dose of self obsession/narcissism.

I'm sure there are as many raging misogynists in the trans community as there are outside it.

If they have to go somewhere at night, they hold their keys tightly in one hand, mobile phone in the other,

I don't. Managed to get to the age of 40 cough 40 not feeling the need to do so as well.
Just being out and about, happily walk around after dark without feeling like I should be hiding indoors.

‘I almost signed the petition to get women the vote because I agree with it, but when I saw how mean you all were I didn’t’

Yeah, 'cos that's what I said

I said people fair enough have concerns about self ID, but I'm not being part of the extremism side. Nope. Not for me.