Are colleagues overreacting or what?

[halfwitpicker]

In the staffroom at lunch today. I was stood waiting for the microwave and one of the guys said:

'You have a hole in your dress'
'Oh really? Where?' I said.
'Here' and he touched the skin where the 'hole' was.

Now this dress doesn't really have a hole. It has a zip, then a gap, then a button.

I was like, what? And one of the women in the office said, 'it's supposed to be like that, that's the way the dress is made' .

I had a serious Wtaf look on my face.

Upshot is I left the lunch room and my (female) colleagues all said that words need to be had with him regarding inappropriate touching.

What's the MN jury on this one? He does have form for being odd, not sure that's relevant.

My reaction was instinct though - I was very much Wtaf are you doing touching my back!

I would find that to be inappropriate touching and it would creep me out.

Context is key - I would be aware of how this man behaves around you in future but nor would I be swept along by other colleagues at this point. I’ve worked with male colleagues in this past who would certainly do unnecessary if not obviously inappropriate touching!

Comments like “it wouldn’t bother me” are really unhelpful in this situation because you really can’t be sure how you would feel - you can only apply your previous experience/situation, I can absolutely think of colleagues where that wouldn’t bother me, and some where I would have felt uncomfortable.

You said he has form for being odd. And he touched you. I would definitely go to HR personally and let them determine. Maybe by calling out his behaviour now he'll think twice next time and it will prevent him from doing something much worse.

It would also send a warning shot to other men at your place of work to think very carefully on what they say/do when interacting with female colleagues! So no bad thing.

How do you feel?

I really worry about how to educate my son no to say anything, not to touch anything and to approach any women with extreme caution just in case they accuse him of something.

Don't touch the bare skin of work colleagues you hardly know. That's a good starting point. You could ask him to listen to the . Highly educational. Just approach women the way you would approach The Rock, that's another helpful guide.

Thing is, whilst some people are suggesting extreme and stupid measures - report to the police? FFS - others are just making the point that there is no need to touch a colleague you hardly know. The only justification I've seen in hundreds of posts is "it's normal/ nothing" and "he needed to touch you to show you where the hole is".

Of the first, "it's normal" is not a justification for anything. We should know by now that people work to make things which are wrong seem normal precisely so they can get away with it. And whilst it might not bother you, it bothers others and you have no justification for it, still. Other than applying first aid, there isn't a reason. Sure, hug an upset colleague you know well who you know will appreciate it. But touch the bare skin of a woman you hardly know, on a vulnerable part of her body? No. There's no positive need for it, so just don't do it, it's simple.

And on the second, no-one has come up with a reason he couldn't just say "it's on your neck, at the top of your zip". The repeated "i wouldn't mind" is just dull now. It should be pretty bloody obvious that we vary in what we do and don't mind so, since there is no reason to do this, assume everyone is in the "don't touch my bare skin at work" camp until you have proof positive otherwise.

And for those people who will still insist they do it and people don't mind - oh they may well mind but they just might not say so because of the very reaction the OP has had on this thread. So you may think you're bonding in some way but for every time you've done that, someone will have been sitting there thinking "I do not want to be touched".

Don't touch the bare skin of work colleagues you hardly know. That's a good starting point

Clapping for you.

Hard to know what to teach him...it's really not.

I have had a hand on my back as the person holding a door open for me ‘guides’ me through

Why? Can't you be trusted to be able to go through the doorway by yourself? 😱

Jesus wept.

Why? Can't you be trusted to be able to go through the doorway by yourself? 😱

Jesus wept.

Did you read any of the context that I posted surrounded the above events or did you just turn your outrage-o-meter up to 11?

Agree with CaliHummers post.

WTF?? the world has gone fucking mad. We are not 8 year old girls!! If someone does something that feels inappropriate, we are perfectly capable of telling them so. We can also choose to give the benefit of the doubt and just brush it off.

As someone who was subjected to a serious sexual assault that almost cost me my life, I find all these pathetic cries about inappropriate knee touching or sexist language trivial and ultimately dis-empowering for women.

I'm quite sure you are assertive enough to put a man in his place if he crosses the line with you. You know you will be believed and backed up you are the victim of sexual misconduct. If it's a minor indiscretion or a misplaced attempt to be friendly, just let it go.

We should also feel able to make a pass and should be allowed to make occasional mistakes with how we interact with each other. We are all human.

I've tucked in a female colleague's label on her dress/t shirt before now. Maybe I should rethink my place in the world. Clearly I'm a lech. I just didn't want the kids at school to make fun of them.

pan but WHY do men feel they need to guide women through the door? I don't need to be guided, I'm not a sheep and I've used doors before.

I doubt they'd do it to another guy so why do it to me?

It's nothing to do with an outrage-o-meter, though if one existed, mine would perpetually be at 11.

straw I personally don't like other women doing that to me either.

Just tell them, why do you need to inflict your hands on people who may find it uncomfortable?

pan but WHY do men feel they need to guide women through the door? I don't need to be guided, I'm not a sheep and I've used doors before.

And if you actually bothered to read my posts it was a women who guided me (a man) out the door in a jokey fashion. Now I had a choice of laughing with her at her deliberately overly theatrical attempts to ‘shoo’ myself and others out of the meeting room she wanted to use and generally take the joke (including her touching my back) as it was clearly intended or do I make her life a misery with formal complaints and an office witch hunt?

Makes it all the more strange that OP doesn't just do that, without involvement from the two colleagues who are so wounded on her behalf.

Because the other colleagues acted without speaking to her. They took the decision out of her hands. All she could do when management approached her about it was be honest and say how she felt about it.

You need to read the thread, three people have now lodged a complaint against this man

Because 3 people witnessed something they believed to be inappropriate. Again, not bullying. You’re supposed to report inappropriate behaviour.

"And if you actually bothered to read my posts" Sorry that I don't read every single message on a 13 page thread, enthralling as I'm sure yours are.

" it was a women who guided me (a man)" entirely fucking different, as I'm sure you know.

Sorry that I don't read every single message on a 13 page thread, enthralling as I'm sure yours are.

Well you decided to respond to one of my posts so it must have been ‘enthralling’ enough for it to pique your interest. Plus it is kind of recommended to read other posts so you have the full picture and context and you don’t get the complete wrong end of the stick as you did.

" it was a women who guided me (a man)" entirely fucking different, as I'm sure you know.

Only if you view life through a lens of perpetual victim hood. Are you seriously suggesting that if the scenario I experienced above involved reverse genders it would suddenly be a grave assault on your person and independence?

VictoryOrValahalla it is not being handled as fairly as you're making out.

The colleagues obviously jumped the gun in reporting it but since then they've all discussed prior 'incidents', 3 colleagues (so 1 more than reported it) all came up the next day asking if OP was OK, and one even described how she'd lost sleep over it. It's so unnecessary. All OP had to do on day 1 was thank them for their initial support and follow up directly with management if needed.

The 'grievance' has obviously become conspiratorial, and if you honestly think it is proportionate to the original "offence", then there is clearly no reasoning with you.

Shirley we’re clearly on different wavelengths here. I can’t see what OP has done wrong. Similarly, if her colleagues think it was innapropriate then they were right to report it. They’re also doing nothing wrong in checking OP was ok and stating that they have witnessed him doing similar things before. Unless you think women shouldn’t be allowed to discuss when they’ve been subject to inappropriate contact in work?

Hopefully HR will manage to get the full picture and sort it out. They can after all talk to everyone involved, which we cannot, and get all sides of the story. They would also know more of the history and context. IME HR departments take both inappropriate behaviour and bullying/ malicious grievances seriously.

It would not bother me at all. I hug many of my colleagues and we often touch each other on the arm etc.

I understand other people not being comfortable with any touch though and that is their prerogative. I think her colleagues really don't like this man and are stirring the shit big time. If OP wanted to report it then that is her look out, but the drama was ramped up by colleagues.

I just don't think touching someone's back is enough for them to report it . on OP's behalf. They just don't like him do they? I would watch your back (no pun intended) with them OP. They used what happened to get at this man. They didn't lose a minutes sleep over this. If they were genuinely concerned about you they would ask what you wanted to do if anything, not ramp it up and report on your behalf.

Clearly the guy didn't need to touch the OP - we all understand where the gap-not-hole is without having seen the dress or the OP.

Whatever the intentions of the man, it made the OP feel uncomfortable - and that's what makes it harassment - it's how the person on the receiving end feels, not the person doing it. The fact that two other witnesses also have felt it wasn't right does suggest that something was not right.

The OP being a new employee does make a difference - there was clearly some sort of previous history with this guy, which she didn't know about, but it could be the other two know a whole load of stuff which we don't - we don't know it's just gossip. It might be. We simply don't have enough info to know one way or another.

I don't know if I would have reported or not in this case. I would definitely mentally take note , hoping it’s a one-off, but knowing it could be part of a pattern. I hope that I would have the presence of mind at the time to say, "please don't touch me again," but I know from past experience, I would probably say nothing, while my brain was whirring round with, "wtf, why is this happening, what should I do, am I over-reacting, does he realise what he's doing, errrrr..." and then probably weakly say thank you. I don't know, though - I have also flinched when someone's unexpectedly touched me before, which usually prompts some sort of reaction anyway.

No man (and it is nearly always men) starts with sexual assault. They start with inappropriate touches and comments, the sort of thing that as a one-off, you can ignore - people do make mistakes with social interaction and boundaries. And it could be that. But it could be the start of testing boundaries, to see what they can get away with, and over time, they might be a bit more invasive, but it will only be a little bit more than the time before, so you won't notice in the same way. And at thie initial point, you just won't know, but the reaction of the other two suggests it probably isn't just misjudgement of boundaries.

Hope things don't get too difficult, OP.

I hug many of my colleagues and we often touch each other on the arm etc.

Have you always? I have colleagues I can hug, and some where we might touch arms, but others I would never want more than a formal handshake (and preferably not that in a couple of cases.) But we weren't like that from day 1, we've established boundaries over years of working together and there are different limits with different people.

Victory I actually don't think anyone should discuss with unfamiliar colleagues what they interpret as inappropriate contact. There is no need. If you feel uncomfortable, that's surely all that matters, just deal with it via the professional channels.

This reads more like a couple of ringleaders decided what this was and somewhere along the line OP has given them the impression she wants/needs their further input.

As this thread shows, this particular situation is ambiguous, and remember, OP created the thread precisely because she originally thought her colleagues overreacted. Yet it's somehow evolved within that office to something sinister.

It's not a matter of women's rights, I'd argue the handling of this was very unfair regardless of sex.

Clearly we'll never agree as I fundamentally don't think he did anything wrong to start with, but I will finish by recommending to OP that the bloke isn't the only colleague she keeps at a friendly distance.

*Clearly the guy didn't need to touch the OP - we all understand where the gap-not-hole is without having seen the dress or the OP.

Whatever the intentions of the man, it made the OP feel uncomfortable - and that's what makes it harassment - it's how the person on the receiving end feels, not the person doing it. The fact that two other witnesses also have felt it wasn't right does suggest that something was not right.* No I think you are wrong, he touched her once, if she asked him to refrain from doing it and he did it again THEN it becomes harassment.

So we have established it is different if a man touches a woman than if a woman touches a woman in these exact circumstances BUT what if the woman doing the touching is a lesbian? Does that change anything because the lesbian woman has the same sexual preferences as this man if he is straight.

I feel sorry for the anyone who has to work with people (men or women) who overreact to something so trivial, a once off that was probably meant to be funny. If you don't like it, say so either when it's done or take aa private moment later on. No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.