Is the EU really such a good thing?

[shouldhavelistenedtom0ther]

I know that many people will tell me how naive I am and that I need a reality check. However, irrespective of how I 'voted' in the Referendum, I am now convinced that the European Union is not something to which I wish to belong.

I feel that (a) the Union offers a fallacy of equality between its member states. This is a fallacy that was made overt when Greece was in crisis three or four years ago and was 'threatened' with exclusion.
(b) There seems to be an insidious assumptions that because the Union was formed on the basis of creating peace between nations on a Post-War context, such peace is not possible without the constraints (and possibilities) afforded by the EU.
(c) If a member state decides to leave, then the impossibility of leaving without economic and social consequences to that member state have been made clear in the two years of negotiations surrounding Brexit.
(d) If (c), then issues of 'freedom' in its truest meaning are raised.
(e) There appears to be a great deal of unrest, Nationalism and disaffection for the Union in other member states and it is possible that the Union will divide or disintegrate in the near future.
(f) In a global economy and a world shrinking through technology, the idea of a united Europe seems outdated and misplaced.

I am not satisfied with the so called 'deal' that is being discussed/sold at the moment. However, I am becoming more and more convinced that the EU is something that has been miss-sold to a lot of nations.

AIBU to think leaving the EU is possibly the 'right' decision despite the inevitable economic consequences?

No.

The EU as an institution was designed to create a market for German and French goods. Every other country has fallen to the wayside. And now when you consider how bloated it is, how unelected (and now they will have an army too) it’s probably for the best that we’re leaving. Hopefully public pressure in individual European countries inspires this institution to change — otherwise it will only be a matter of time before other countries are also forced to bow to public pressure like the UK did. It’s a shame because if you take away the institution then the principles behind the customs union / freedom of movement are brilliant.

Well,

a) you probably have a point - mistakes were made in terms of implementing the Euro and admitting countries who were financially not in a state to be equal partners. Humanity = fallible.
b) and e) would you like to see the consequences of extreme nationalism happen again? I'd rather not. Is striving for peace such a bad thing given what happened in '14-'18?
c) the UK could have just said 'fuck it' and walked away with no deal on 24/06/2016. But yes, there would always be economic consequences of leaving. When your economy is entwined with the economies of 27 other countries, there are going to be some complexities. Why would you expect it to be otherwise?
f) In a global world where countries operate in blocs, why in the world would it make any kind of sense to go it alone? The EU will need to evolve, but collaboration is a far better course than isolationism.

So yes, YABU.

No.

1. Article 13.
2. The prospect of an EU army (which everyone said would never happen...looks like it's going to).
3. Dictating to Italy about it's budget when other countries have done what Italy has just voted through without any consequences from the EU.

These are just a few of the things that make me dislike them even more.

Just on the Greece thing: quite right that if they refuse to alter some things they should be excluded.
Why should our retirement age be so much older than theirs so we can subsidise them?

2) The prospect of an EU army (which everyone said would never happen...looks like it's going to).

For balance I feel the need to point out that there would be no EU army if the UK were staying in. As the UK had a veto to prevent it. But we are buggering off and they can do as they like now.

YABVU

A) My understanding is that Greece misled the EU over the state of their economy to be able to join the Eurozone, so not really a case of inequality, but more a case of those limits being there for a reason and Greece paying the price for ignoring them.
B) Well Europe has been riven with conflict throughout history up until the formation of the EU, so it's a bit more than an 'insidious assumption'...
C & D) It's not going to be as strong if people can leave willy-nilly. Maybe freedom is a little restricted, but you know what they say about freedom... And there are enormous benefits that make it worthwhile being involved - tangible benefits, not just a nebulous notion of 'freedom'. As things stand, we have a say in laws, we have a veto etc.
E) As I understand it, since witnessing the almighty car crash that is Brexit support for the EU has strengthened in the other countries.
F) I think your point there is contradictory.

It's not a perfect organisation, but we are far better in than out.

The EU is a necessary evil along the lines of Hobbes' Leviathan. It's a bit nasty but the alternatives are nastier. In a world dominated by Russia, a currently protectionist/isolationist USA and China, the life of a small independent nation with an economy based on provision of global services and few natural resources will be 'nasty, brutish and short' so better to be part of the leviathan trying to influence its course than on the outside

No. The Lisbon treaty was the final nail in the coffin for me, all of the countries that joined in 2007 have benefited greatly from the EU off the backs of the richer net contributors already in the EU, I just don't understand what long term sustainability and benefits that is supposed to come from that.

YANBU. The EU is no longer fit for purpose, and I will be glad when we're out tbh.

I just hope we don't get fucked over with this 'dea' MAY is trying to push through.

Leaving with no deal would be better than a bad deal

DEAL, not 'dea' obviously.

We just subsidize the poorer countries from what I can see, so I too will be glad when we leave.

Leaving with no deal would be extremely bad for the economy imo

Leaving with May's deal will be somewhat less bad for the economy

Staying in the EU would be best. The EU is by no means a perfect institution. Lots needs to change, but I'd far rather we were still in it to try and change it that not in it at all.

I agree that EU political structures are very far from ideal. However there is no better alternative.

We are enjoying the longest period of peace in recorded European history. Largely thanks to the EU's existence. For that reason alone it is worth sticking with IMO.

No.

I voted leave and I’d vote leave again - every last part of Brexit has reinforced my belief that it’s an horrendous institution.

Unlike staunch remainers like to believe, my decision had nothing to do with immigration.

I have recently read the NHS figures and would assume many people would alos find them shocking

In what one MP described as a "scandalous failure", it has emerged that the UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Brits' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU, even though there are significantly more EU citizens in the UK than UK citizens in the EU.

The new figures reveal that nearly every country claims more from the UK than the UK claims back from the rest of the EU.

UK pays France £147,685,772, but France only pays UK £6,730,292

UK pays Germany £25,873,954 but Germany only pays the UK £2,189,664.

Many pundits say it isn't a big enough amount to make a difference. Others point out that we pay less to Switzerland than they pay us. Yet more say that the NHS simply cannot work out who/what it can charge for, leading me to wonder why there hasn't been an EU directive to make this more transparent?

All of which boils down to the inescapable fact that the EU is indeed inequitable, not the democracy we like to think it is!

That and I don't understand why we have agreed to pay £39 BILLION+ to get an EU divorce and are still being held to ransom over the family silver.

Nor do I know why we have been the subservient petitioner.

Mostly I think we will soon need a massive political upheaval, we don't have any politicians worth their salt!

C and F are linked aren’t they. In a global economy, aligning yourself with the second largest trading Block is always going to be beneficial for the economy. Choosing to leave that will inevitably lead to being worse off.

Arguably that could have been slightly mitigated by taking a different tack in negotiations. However we’ve decided to put party before country and tied ourselves in knots trying to appease certain parts of the Tory party.

Well, there are two different questions, aren’t there.

A) whether you think as a matter of principle that the EU is a good thing.
B) whether, given that (for better or for worse) the EU exists, you think the UK is better off inside it or out.

I can see how someone could conclude that the answer to the first question is no, it’s not a good thing. But I find it incredibly difficult to understand how anyone can conclude that the answer to the second question is that the UK is better off outside it.

samphire the issue of NHS payments is about the EHIC, not about entitlement. EU nationals living in the UK and fulfilling their treaty obligations (i.e.being in work or education) are entitled to the same treatment a UK nationals - that is, full access to the NHS. The EU countries of origin owe nothing to the UK for these people, because they are living, working and paying taxes in their country of residence, just like British people.

NHS payments are for people who visit another EU country. The UK is incredibly bad at claiming back for these people, but that is not the EU's fault - it is down to the UK to manage this.

If I (an EU national living and working in the UK) were to go back to my native Netherlands, I would only be entitled to healthcare if I had an EHIC (and I would be wise to have supplementary travel insurance too). Healthcare entitlement in the EU is based on where you are resident, not on what nationality you are.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

On the healthcare thing. The discrepancy is because 1) the UK is so crap at admin we don't even know what to charge for but that's our problem to resolve, not really the fault of the EU. 2) our Healthcare costs are relatively low compared to countries like Switzerland so we "recharge" less because the costs to us are less and 3) far more uk nationals retire to the continent than the other way around and they require a massive amount of healthcare.

It seems unfair, but the reason we aren't getting extra money is because we're not asking for it.

fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/

pointy that's apples and oranges, isn't it? I am aware of the difference between resident and tourist healthcare!

Chicken I did say that, I am not dismissing any of that. What I am saying is that there aren't m/any other reciprocal agreements that one member state is allowed to be shite at! There is usually an incredibly prescriptive manner in which to access and claim for such monies to prevent one member state losing out!

I know that, I spent 3 years of my life filling out reams of such paperwork!

Chicken I took some of my info from fullfact they are usually a pretty even handed source of info!

Leaving with no deal would be national suicide.
Leaving is a difficult thing, as we should all see by now, so why don't people grow up and accept TM deal? Because it's too hard. Ridiculous. If you want this thing so badly, accept the least worst option. Which is TM Deal.
If you want no deal, don't come whining to me or anyone else when the food can't get to the shops and, when it does, it's much more expensive. Because, I won't give a shit for you and your problems.

I trust the EU more than I trust the British Government particularly with regard to workers rights, environmental, food, health and other laws. That in itself is a persuasive argument for me.

The economic side of things is the icing in the cake IMO.

It's not a perfect organisation, but we are far better in than out.

This. I am a very pro-Remain but I have to admit that there is a lot that I don't like about the EU - just as there is a lot I don't like about the UK government! What it boils down to though is that I strongly believe that in a world of superpowers we are basically a small island and we will never be better off (financially or otherwise) without being in a union with our nearest neighbours.