Is the EU really such a good thing?

[shouldhavelistenedtom0ther]

I know that many people will tell me how naive I am and that I need a reality check. However, irrespective of how I 'voted' in the Referendum, I am now convinced that the European Union is not something to which I wish to belong.

I feel that (a) the Union offers a fallacy of equality between its member states. This is a fallacy that was made overt when Greece was in crisis three or four years ago and was 'threatened' with exclusion.
(b) There seems to be an insidious assumptions that because the Union was formed on the basis of creating peace between nations on a Post-War context, such peace is not possible without the constraints (and possibilities) afforded by the EU.
(c) If a member state decides to leave, then the impossibility of leaving without economic and social consequences to that member state have been made clear in the two years of negotiations surrounding Brexit.
(d) If (c), then issues of 'freedom' in its truest meaning are raised.
(e) There appears to be a great deal of unrest, Nationalism and disaffection for the Union in other member states and it is possible that the Union will divide or disintegrate in the near future.
(f) In a global economy and a world shrinking through technology, the idea of a united Europe seems outdated and misplaced.

I am not satisfied with the so called 'deal' that is being discussed/sold at the moment. However, I am becoming more and more convinced that the EU is something that has been miss-sold to a lot of nations.

AIBU to think leaving the EU is possibly the 'right' decision despite the inevitable economic consequences?

Brexit trolls out in force.

What, you're a troll if you support Brexit?
More than one political view is surely acceptable in a democracy?

A purely theoretical point being inequitable and being a democracy are not mutually exclusive.

Many democracies are inequitable - the U.K. is a striking example.

The EU is a democratic institution btw.

Brexit reasoning really is nonsense.

I was a reluctant remainer, wanted to stay in & ideally have some reform. Why are our civil servants so incompetent? I feel we are heading for a 2nd referendum or a deal that’s still “in” if that makes sense. This makes me uncomfortable & in or out I think we are heading for some tough economic times.

Our civil servants are facing tough odds one country against the whole EU. The EU is a powerful institution with much influence. That's why we should stay.

@shouldhavelistenedtom0ther

YANBU. You’ve touched on a few of the reasons I (and other hardcore ‘lefties’ I know) quietly chose to vote leave.

The way the post-vote negotiations have gone have only convinced me further that I voted in the right way and in a way that aligns with my own ethics. As uncomfortable as it felt at the time.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I do wish people who voted remain would offer the same courtesy.

Clio no but it's fascinating that at least 7 of the pro brexit people on this thread have only been posting since the end of November. Or have a need to frequently name change.

Ah well. If I have to be @ed and hectored, even considered a troll, I'll bow out and leave the thread to descend into that weird echo chamber so many Brexit threads become!

But I will leave with a thought. Brexit reasoning really is nonsense. as is Remain reasoning, for many of the very same reasons.

I had thought that maybe MN Brexit threads might be more balanced by now, allowing for a more nuanced discussion. But it appears not. The same belabouring behaviour is alive and well.

I'll come back after March, maybe!

at least 7 of the pro brexit people on this thread have only been posting since the end of November. Or have a need to frequently name change. The fact that you have checked posting histories is probably why they felt the need to namechange! Weird!

Curious
Brexit threads would be more balanced if those in favour of leave would come up with some clear ideas.

Do they want to stay in the Single Market?
Do they have an idea for the Irish border?
Who do they want to do trade deals with that we do not already trade with ?
What will be better in their daily lives after the Brexit they voted for ?

When the Leave supporters are clear about what they actually want
then it will start to balance out.

Oh dear, London subsidies the rest of the U.K. Well perhaps if the rest of the country hadn’t been starved of infrastructure and investments that wouldn’t be so.

I remember my dad saying many years ago that if a branch of a company in the south wasn’t doing very well they’d close a branch in the north. I used to think this was bs but he was proved right time and time again. Mind you this was when manufacturing was a big industry in the U.K.

The London and sourthercentric view of life in the U.K. has discriminated against the rest of the UK for years.

Imissgmichael
Well perhaps if the rest of the country hadn’t been starved of infrastructure and investments that wouldn’t be so.
But that is down to Whitehall decisions.
EU funds have been spent all around the country to compensate.
What do you think will happen after Brexit?

The EU is not a particularly good thing but our membership of the EU means peace in NI. If you were old enough to remember what it was like during the Troubles you wouldn't want to leave.

I love EU membership & will miss it loads

Yes, heard that before!

Yes to Common Market, probably - it's what the original referendum was for
Ireland, well yes but no, like most other people any idea I have doesn't suit someone else.
Trade deals - worked out individually by us with other non EU countries, rather than en bloc. No one can really say how that will work out as we can't start until after we are out and maybe not even then, depending...
Daily life - who knows? I don't have a crystal ball

Answer Remainers don't usually accept. Just as many of the Remainers justifications are n't accepted by Leavers.

Are you assuming I voted Leave? That's the sort of instant judgement I had hoped was over by now!

Did anyone else hear the Norwegian MP (this morning radio) talking about why EFTA don't want UK to join? That was fairly sobering. Norway is a 'superpower' within the group, and UK has a totally different economy & set of priorities. They don't want us in their club(!)

Trade deal - worked out individually by us with other non EU countries
The world economy is
25% China
25% USA
25% EU
25% Rest of world
The UK team has so far failed to get an outline agreement with anybody
China play VERY hard ball
USA play very erratic hard ball
EU are already whumping us
leaving 1/4 of the world to do business with

and what is so wrong with our current trade deals ?

There were many factors in ending the Troubles. The hard work of the people involved in the Good Friday agreement, I believe. We pay more in to the EU than the subsidies returned. It's a bit like giving your child £10 to buy you a Christmas present.
Margaret Thatcher famously believed that a way to claw back some EU money was to keep certain areas eg Wales underfunded so that they'd qualify for an EU grant. Otherwise, she loved the EU as she saw it as a way to defeat union power.

No it hasn’t Talkin. Any EU money (which is actually our own money) is spent mostly in the south and major northern towns like Liverpool. We in the north don’t matter.

Anyway it’s not relevant. I am pig sick of people from Londen whinging about how they are propping up the country without understanding the dynamics.

The EU is a bit like democracy - it's the least worst option. While it's there, we need to be in it.

I'm a Remainer but I'm well aware the EU is far from perfect. However, we are far better off in than out.

As for the person moaning that U.K. pensioners are going to come back to the UK and be a drain on the NHS. Give your ageist discriminatory head a wobble. We should allow immigrants to use the NHS but not British people who were born in the UK and have paid into the system for over 40 years ( for many). Nasty disgusting attitude.

Civil servants getting a bit of a rough deal here. I don’t think this mess is their fault. They can’t really be blamed for the fact that the Secretaries of State for their departments are idiots that don’t know their arse from their elbows and won’t listen to expertise.

Imiss NHS access is based on residence, not nationality. What's the difference between an immigrant who has paid taxes in the UK for 30+ years and a native Brit who has done the same and then has gone off to live in sunny Spain?

@Imissgmichael
As for the person moaning that U.K. pensioners are going to come back to the UK and be a drain on the NHS. Give your ageist discriminatory head a wobble. We should allow immigrants to use the NHS but not British people who were born in the UK and have paid into the system for over 40 years ( for many). Nasty disgusting attitude.

Nobody has suggested that British pensioners should not be allowed NHS treatment. What is happening at present is that UK citizens, not just pensioners, are using their EHIC cards to access healthcare in countries like Spain (staying as 'tourists' for 59 days at a time so as to retain their NHS entitlement) and that the NHS ends up reimbursing the Spanish health service - e.g. £223m in 2015.

After Brexit, these people will still require treatment, so the £223m can be used in the UK - but will also require more beds, more doctors and nurses etc to look after the people who were previously treated abroad, so this is an additional demand on the NHS.

As for immigrants - should immigrants working and paying tax not be allowed access to the NHS? Non-EU citizens actually already pay twice - once through their taxes and again through the government's health surcharge. Not particularly fair - and a disgusting attitude when many non-EU immigrants fill vital posts in the NHS.

What, you're a troll if you support Brexit?
More than one political view is surely acceptable in a democracy?

You are very brave to support leave on mumsnet!