Is the EU really such a good thing?

[shouldhavelistenedtom0ther]

I know that many people will tell me how naive I am and that I need a reality check. However, irrespective of how I 'voted' in the Referendum, I am now convinced that the European Union is not something to which I wish to belong.

I feel that (a) the Union offers a fallacy of equality between its member states. This is a fallacy that was made overt when Greece was in crisis three or four years ago and was 'threatened' with exclusion.
(b) There seems to be an insidious assumptions that because the Union was formed on the basis of creating peace between nations on a Post-War context, such peace is not possible without the constraints (and possibilities) afforded by the EU.
(c) If a member state decides to leave, then the impossibility of leaving without economic and social consequences to that member state have been made clear in the two years of negotiations surrounding Brexit.
(d) If (c), then issues of 'freedom' in its truest meaning are raised.
(e) There appears to be a great deal of unrest, Nationalism and disaffection for the Union in other member states and it is possible that the Union will divide or disintegrate in the near future.
(f) In a global economy and a world shrinking through technology, the idea of a united Europe seems outdated and misplaced.

I am not satisfied with the so called 'deal' that is being discussed/sold at the moment. However, I am becoming more and more convinced that the EU is something that has been miss-sold to a lot of nations.

AIBU to think leaving the EU is possibly the 'right' decision despite the inevitable economic consequences?

The level of poverty in the UK is shocking. I can well imagine the helplessness of living in a post-industrial town with few prospects for jobs which give a good standard of living.

It really does not have to be this way. Germany has a fantastic regional policy with a thriving manufacturing sector and standards of living high across the country. The apprenticeship scheme means that school leavers without good academic qualifications get good jobs.

Ireland also has an excellent regional policy. Dell is based in Cork and other global firms (Microsoft, pharma companies) provide excellent jobs outside of Dublin. Ireland has used its position in the EU to attract American investment as a base to serve Europe. If Scotland were independent, it could try a similar model.

This comparison is to say that it is a failure of UK domestic policy to improve the North not EU policy.

The Etonians (Boris and Rees-Mogg) have truly had a stroke of genius by diverting legitimate anger away from Tory policy towards the EU.

OP I'm with you, I don’t think the EU has made anyone’s lives better except for the large corporations

Well think again.

Contrary to popular belief the EU is not all powerful, it is in the main a trading bloc (which we have delegated limited powers to).

The areas where it can make lives better are limited - mainly to the environment, agricultural and food and safety standards and some workers’ rights. It cannot, for example, pump money into say schools or the NHS,or into Portuguese schools or hospitals , because those are matters for national governments.

In the areas where we did give the EU institutions a limited remit , it has made positive difference. For example:

Air travel-cheaper,safer.
Beaches and rivers-With the limited shared powers regarding the environment the EU contributed to improved cleaner,safer coastal regions.
Consumer protection-improved consumer protection and better product safety.
Equal pay-There has been some EU influence on women’s rights; although there is still a pay gap it would have been worse otherwise.

Food- ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives and improved food labelling.

Health when visiting the EU-Free medical cover (EHIC)
*
Holiday* entitlement- basic work holiday allocation. Frances O’Grady of the Trade Union Congress chief I says these rights are at risk now. There will be pressure from businesses to relax the existing regulations and we all know how weak employment rights are in the US and that is the way we are headed too.

Just in time delivery -Around 45% of our exports are to the EU. JIT deliveries are essential for many large employers like the automotive industry.EU membership has facilitated this for all our benefit.

Jobs-Our link to Europe fostered millions of jobs. Huge global companies are reducing, rationalising, leaving. See the list of businesses already quitting on the charting our nemesis thread.

Lead free petrol

Maternity and paternity leave-The EU helped lay down minimum maternity/paternity leave protections although we have altered these..

Mobile charges-cheaper, easier.

Patents-Europe-wide patent and copyright protection.

Peace- The real reason why the EU was originated were all about peace- to make the horror of WWI and II impossible to repeat by linking the European economies and trade together.A lasting peace with the EU standing together with us predominantly at the helm. 60 years as the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

Regeneration- Within it’s remit some investment in North of England, Wales regions that our own government has been much less inclined to invest in.

Single market -No paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market.

Solidarity-The EU represented solidarity against regular Russian incursions into our sea and airspace.We are almost certainly weaker and more vulnerable alone.

Smoke-free workplaces.

Spam- helped control the spam
Emails that used to arrive in their thousands.

Trade -Providing 57% of our trade.The EU, and its 740 million consumers, is in a much better position to negotiate with the world than the UK alone (with just 64 million consumers).

Universities-EU-funded research and collaboration.

Wildlife protection -stronger than elsewhere in the world.

Work placements- Funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad.

Working week-The right not to work more than a 48-hour week unless choosing otherwise. Although U.K. did choose to retain ability to opt out.

So yes, within it’s remit, it did make our lives better actually.

Sorry bold fail but you get the gist. As said up thread we wouldn't have the Working Time Directive, Temporary Agency Workers Directive, banking regulations (Capital Banking Directive), clean water and The Good Friday Agreement.

All things designed to help individuals not large corporations.

The question was asked - are we better off in the EU? Answers have been given with specific examples.

Yes we are better off. Look at that list that lonelyplanetmum has provided. Do you want to lose all that.

The politicians who want Brexit on the right, want to get rid of those laws. They will make your life more unpleasant, your job harder and it will make you poorer.

The working time directive is very easy for companies to opt out of though, all they have to do is get their employees to sign an opt out clause, which I’ve done for every single corporation I’ve worked for. What therefore is the point?

Take the cap on bankers bonuses, all the banks did was to circumvent the legislation by increasing salaries.

The Good Friday agreement, I’m sorry but In no way can you attribute all the hard work done on resolving peace in Northern Ireland to the EU. There are parts of the agreement that are more easily facilitated by EU membership, but that is not the same thing.

By the way, I’m in favour of remain, but I do not believe for one moment that the EU is some perfect organisation. It’s unwillingness to reform is surely the greatest threat to its future existence.

"The Good Friday agreement, I’m sorry but In no way can you attribute all the hard work done on resolving peace in Northern Ireland to the EU. There are parts of the agreement that are more easily facilitated by EU membership, but that is not the same thing."
If anything, it was Mo Mowlem. BUT the long hoped for progress and solution came entirely from both parties being in the EU. It would not have happened otherwise. Which is why fucking with it is so dreadful. Downplaying the importance of both parties' EU membership is a pathetic attempt to rewrite history and law.

WTD - you opt out other people don't. It is a safeguard, do you really want it gone?

The Capital Banking Directive is more than bonuses it requires banks to have set aside enough capital to cover unexpected losses. It is far from perfect, I would like much more stringent regulation but it is more than a U.K. government would dare introduce.

The EU was not wholly responsible for the GFA, absolutely. However, the EU is essential to maintaining it.

The EU is not perfect, it doesn't do everything but it does enough to make it worth being a member.

Mousse you always blame politicians on the right. What about Corbyn - he’s also a leaver.

The working time directive is very easy for companies to opt out of though, all they have to do is get their employees to sign an opt out clause, which I’ve done for every single corporation I’ve worked for. What therefore is the point?

The ability to opt out was negotiated by Thatcher. Most other EU countries didn't have that.
We wanted it and we got it.

So you're right it does dilute the protection. BUT it was successive U.K. governments who insisted on keeping the ability to opt out.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2017/11/7-times-tories-let-down-british-workers-and-why-they-won-t-protect-you-now#amp

@dapplegrey please read my posts before criticising.

I said " The plan of the right and left who support Brexit is to throw the country into turmoil"

The extremes on both sides see Brexit as an opportunity for change. The left hope sufficient misery and poverty will force the working class to unite. The right want to use Brexit as an excuse to deregulate even further.

Brexit is an opportunity for extremes - both extremes.