Is the EU really such a good thing?

[shouldhavelistenedtom0ther]

I know that many people will tell me how naive I am and that I need a reality check. However, irrespective of how I 'voted' in the Referendum, I am now convinced that the European Union is not something to which I wish to belong.

I feel that (a) the Union offers a fallacy of equality between its member states. This is a fallacy that was made overt when Greece was in crisis three or four years ago and was 'threatened' with exclusion.
(b) There seems to be an insidious assumptions that because the Union was formed on the basis of creating peace between nations on a Post-War context, such peace is not possible without the constraints (and possibilities) afforded by the EU.
(c) If a member state decides to leave, then the impossibility of leaving without economic and social consequences to that member state have been made clear in the two years of negotiations surrounding Brexit.
(d) If (c), then issues of 'freedom' in its truest meaning are raised.
(e) There appears to be a great deal of unrest, Nationalism and disaffection for the Union in other member states and it is possible that the Union will divide or disintegrate in the near future.
(f) In a global economy and a world shrinking through technology, the idea of a united Europe seems outdated and misplaced.

I am not satisfied with the so called 'deal' that is being discussed/sold at the moment. However, I am becoming more and more convinced that the EU is something that has been miss-sold to a lot of nations.

AIBU to think leaving the EU is possibly the 'right' decision despite the inevitable economic consequences?

I trust the EU more than I trust the British Government particularly with regard to workers rights, environmental, food, health and other laws. That in itself is a persuasive argument for me.

So it doesn't matter what people her vote for? This works fine as long as it's going your way, doesn't it?

The EU prioritises worker’s rights and consumer standards. Hence limits on working hours

Yeah sure, tell that to all the BHS pensioners, the people on zero hours contracts and so on - I don't see the EU protecting many of the people who really need it actually - we seem to have a lot of "rights" - not many that are actually worth anything.

But those are UK government decisions!

They are banned in many European countries and the EU are considering severely restricting them. Do you want the EU to set more rules to ban them, or would that breach ‘sovereignity’?

fullfact.org/law/zero-hours-contracts-uk-europe/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-casual-workers-protections-rights-gig-economy-zero-hour-contracts-flexible-working-a7965416.html%3famp

Is it true that 'pro-leave' threads do not appear on the Brexit board? That seems very strange.

However, does anyone feel a sense of excitement at the possibility that, as a nation, we can make 'leave' work?

So it doesn't matter what people her vote for? This works fine as long as it's going your way, doesn't it?

I'm not sure I commented on the democratic element of it. I think that is a whole different debate.

Feel free to impose opinions on me though!

I mean Zero Hours contracts.

You say that we don’t have many rights that mean anything. True that tou’ll probably appreciate them more when they’re take away.

But I accept that nothing I say can persuade you that the EU is a force for good. Either it’s not doing enough or for doing too much and encroaching on ‘sovereignity’.

But I think Britain should leave, as ultimately GB, or at least England, doesn’t really ‘get’ Europe. It’s not just about the financial benefits of trade which are great, but also of being part of a common good and yes, breaking a pattern of centuries of European wars. Citing national interest and ‘what’s in it for me?’ is really missing the point.

However, does anyone feel a sense of excitement at the possibility that, as a nation, we can make 'leave' work?

The problem is it may take decades to come to fruition, and there's a lot of pain to get through and I for one am not sure it will work. I don't like the odds on this gamble.

However, does anyone feel a sense of excitement at the possibility that, as a nation, we can make 'leave' work?
What do you personally expect from leave?
What will your tangible proof of success be ?

Is it true that 'pro-leave' threads do not appear on the Brexit board? That seems very strange.

Not really. It's more that any pro-remain thread is reported quickly and spirited away to the Brexit board where fewer posters can see it. Apparently there are a lot of people who don't want to see Brexit stuff on AIBU unless it's pro-leave and they care so much about it that they report swiftly and systematically.

However, does anyone feel a sense of excitement at the possibility that, as a nation, we can make 'leave' work?

No.

Absolutely cannot wait leave. The EEC worked well when limited to trade and economically similar countries. Now it seems like some sort of manipulated annexation of countries who have neither economic or cultural similarities to the original members. Our culture, legal system and to an extent economy are also far removed from those that dictate the running of the EU. The EU are determined to make our lives misery over this (although part of me is wondering whether may deliberately fucked up the deal so she had a remit to go back to the people - esp with Goves comments today)

Citing national interest and ‘what’s in it for me?’ is really missing the point.

Yes totally this, and it is obvious that while there are many in the UK who do want to be part of the European project and who do feel kinship with our friends and neighbours, an equal amount do not. Not only that, they are determined to spin an us and them narrative.

It is an intractable problem IMO.

The EU is not being done to us, we are, at least for the time being, part of it. All this “Up Yours Delors” type of nonsense is a colonial throw back fomented by the gutter press. It has been extremely damaging.

The likes of Rees-Mogg, Farage and Johnson are an utterly selfish and morality free zone and worse IMO.

Deadbudgie
How will leave make your own life better?

Andhow - I think most of the threads end up being pro Remain as leavers are outnumbered by, and given a pretty hard time by remainers.

I think it's more to do with the fact that leaving has no upsides that will change people's lives for the better.

@Cuppaqueen the UK is part of the EU. The uks failure to condemn germaby’s actions, or to accept asylum claims from refugees in southern stars or, ideally refugee camps in Lebanon etc, exacerbated the problem. The whole lot acted in a manner that was deplorable meanwhile feeding off this self satisfaction of how wonderful you all were and how you all wanted all governments to be like the German government completely ignoring that children were dying as a direct covsewyence of the policies that were so highly praised. I was and remain utterly disgusted. Asylum claims should always be made at first point of safety refugees reach. Countries that do not fall within that category have a moral obligation to accept refugees from designated refugee camps as close to danger zones as practicable. Any refugees (baring children) who try to make asylum claims having passed through age coubtrues should be rejected as economic migrants and offered safe passage to a refugee camp where they can make their asylum claim to discourage the practice of people smuggling. Anything less is wrong because it encouragerefugees to risk their lives, it disadvantages refugeeswho are unlikely to make it to western countries because they are poor or infirm and it helps fund terrorise irganisations. There is a right way to deal with this but governments don’t want to do it because it would mean an greater burden to them and the electorate is too indifferent or too ignorant to understand and demand it.

talkin How will leave make your own life better?

I’ve lost count of the number of times you’ve asked this question. Have you ever had an actual answer?

I don't think the EU is perfect, actually far from it. But compared to Brexit Britain, it's a dream.

The problem is a number of mistruths have been allowed to develop. Probably most prominently in terms of the UK Brexit debate ( and I apologise for shouting, but some people really struggle with this) FREE MOVEMENT DOESN'T MEAN FREEDOM TO GO ANYWHERE AND STAY THERE. In order for an EU citizen to gain residency in another EU country they have to prove they have financial means to do so - either through obtaining work, or proving they have sufficient funds to live and support themselves. Failure to prove this = no right to stay and gain any benefits of residency.

The EU has variously pushed member states to promote social justice, encourage equality, and deliver rights for the most marginalised groups. Of course, a union of so many diverse states is going to have a number of challenges, and is never going to please everybody. The truth is, by working together as part of a wider community, everyone does benefit. On a micro level through things such as the EHIC card, to the macro on things like the free movement of goods and services, which benefits everyone.

Our culture, legal system and to an extent economy are also far removed from those that dictate the running of the EU

Totally untrue. I can't get my head round people believing this. Our culture and history is intrinsically linked with Europe. Look at our language - how many French words are in it? That's one simplistic example.

The Renaissance, the enlightenment, the reformation all Europe wide movements that shape our common culture.

What unites us is far bigger and more important than what divides us.

I worry about the suppression of news and information within the EU. Many non-EU websites now block EU based citizens from accessing them altogether because the EU has such oppressive heavy handed laws (GDPR) for the press that they refuse to put their sites in compliance with them. Many of these are not niche or disreputable organisations - they include the LA Times and Chicago Tribune. If people think the EU heavily censoring what we are allowed to know and read is not a problem, they are deluded.

The stuff about ‘the EU looks after workers rights’ is pretty risible too. My family are middle class, live in the South and have salaried jobs and were always going on about that pre Brexit. I live in the North and work on a zero hours contract and my husband is self employed (in name only) in the construction industry. My relatives didn’t seem to be able to compute that we have none of these rights until I became very ill and needed family support and it brought home to them just how few rights many people in our situation actually have. Saying it is the fault of the UK government doesn’t cut it when you’re arguing that these rights are a reason to stay in when many people don’t have them.

The EU benefits the wealthiest and those with the most power. They have done very, very little for those in this country who are not wealthy, which is why they won’t vote to stay in the EU. Remainers are much more likely to be privileged and wealthy people - the AB social groups were the only ones which voted a majority for the EU. Remainers don’t seem to compute that they are asking leavers to vote to protect the privileges of those who are already far more privileged than they themselves are.

The Renaissance, the enlightenment, the reformation all Europe wide movements that shape our common culture.

Oh come on. I suppose you could make an argument that the Renaissance was a Europe wide movement, but certainly not the reformation. The Reformation is a far better example of a divided Europe than a united one. And the Renaissance was very much an elite movement which had very, very little relevance to ordinary Europeans who would have been far more concerned with things like the harvest and crops and their own mortality than farting about discussing the arts and philosophy.

I worry about the suppression of news and information within the EU??

It's the U.K. press that distorts and suppresses news and information. We have the least trustworthy press in Europe.

www.statista.com/statistics/454403/europe-trust-in-the-written-press-by-country/

Right lonelyplanetmum, and your solution to that is that we should legislate to stop people reading things? That the government should say what we can and can’t know? You believe censorship creates a better press?

What a load of rubbish. It amazes me that remainers constantly come out with this sort of stuff which wouldn’t look out of place in a history book about the USSR or Nazi Germany, yet they expect us to believe they are the good guys?

Those statistics don’t actually show that the press ‘suppresses’ anything. It’s about the level of trust in the press - it has nothing to do with the press suppressing information. To claim it does is misleading.

The Renaissance, the enlightenment, the reformation all Europe wide movements that shape our common culture. You should read David Starkey's' recent article in the DT, where he says this is the second Brexit...the break with Rome being the first.

Our culture, legal system and to an extent economy are also far removed from those that dictate the running of the EU Very true. In the UK we can do anything we want unless it is specifically forbidden. In Europe, you can only do what is specifically allowed. It might be a subtle difference, but it exists.

The culture is very different; after 13 years in Belgium I still find much of it strange. The economy is also different, very highly taxed and some strange employment laws as well.

I would ask those who believe the EU is full of fluffy unicorn glitter, to have a look at what the EU is currently trying on with Switzerland and draw their own conclusions.

Last, it is not the EU that has kept the peace in Europe since 1949, but NATO, which predates the ECSC that morphed into the EEC and then via Maastricht and Lisbon to the construct we see now.

I voted Leave; I do not like the direction of travel and I distrust the Commission.

Those statistics also ignore the fact that it could potentially at least partly be the effects of EU law which have lead to distrust of the press as they are currently working within their confines.

The British press are not the ones blocking reputable news publications from being read within the EU. They are not the ones passing laws on what we can and can’t read. It’s also the British press who are currently standing up against an incredibly wealthy man who probably has the strongest Nazi links of any UK person who is demanding that he is allowed to regulate the UK press because he’s cross his perversions and exploitation of women was exposed by that self same press. A man who is strongly supported by men like Steve Coogan and Hugh Grant who would prefer that the terrible way they exploit women stayed hushed up.

And is the EU interested in standing up to those people? No it’s not. In fact, they support them.