Is the EU really such a good thing?

[shouldhavelistenedtom0ther]

I know that many people will tell me how naive I am and that I need a reality check. However, irrespective of how I 'voted' in the Referendum, I am now convinced that the European Union is not something to which I wish to belong.

I feel that (a) the Union offers a fallacy of equality between its member states. This is a fallacy that was made overt when Greece was in crisis three or four years ago and was 'threatened' with exclusion.
(b) There seems to be an insidious assumptions that because the Union was formed on the basis of creating peace between nations on a Post-War context, such peace is not possible without the constraints (and possibilities) afforded by the EU.
(c) If a member state decides to leave, then the impossibility of leaving without economic and social consequences to that member state have been made clear in the two years of negotiations surrounding Brexit.
(d) If (c), then issues of 'freedom' in its truest meaning are raised.
(e) There appears to be a great deal of unrest, Nationalism and disaffection for the Union in other member states and it is possible that the Union will divide or disintegrate in the near future.
(f) In a global economy and a world shrinking through technology, the idea of a united Europe seems outdated and misplaced.

I am not satisfied with the so called 'deal' that is being discussed/sold at the moment. However, I am becoming more and more convinced that the EU is something that has been miss-sold to a lot of nations.

AIBU to think leaving the EU is possibly the 'right' decision despite the inevitable economic consequences?

to the macro on things like the free movement of goods and services, which benefits everyone.
Does it really benefit everyone? Being able to send a Mini camshaft across the channel 5 times cheaply may benefit a German multi-national car maker but it's fuck all good for climate change.

@BorisBogtrotter

We had the rule in 1973 - as you said, the EU has stopped us from removing it ever since.

Why does the parliament have to move so often at a cost of £150m a year, which is nothing in fiscal terms?

It was agreed in a treaty.

Its not a vast expense, its 0.1% of the entire EU budget.

"We had the rule in 1973 - as you said, the EU has stopped us from removing it ever since."

Why didn't we remove it before then?

Education, housing, employment and training, healthcare, elderly care, mental health care, infrastructure, regional development, utilities, crime prevention etc etc.

All the responsibility of the UK government - and any problems associated with these are solely the responsibility of the various UK governments of the last 50 years, which includes all 3 major parties in England.

Add to this industrialists and business managers who repeatedly showed an inability to manage and innovate, and an uncanny knack of backing the wrong horse while looking for short term gains. And trade union leaders that remained blinkered while the world around them changed. No wonder the UK has stagnated for almost 50 years.

Note that none of these issues has much to do with the EU - and for that reason, making the EU the scapegoat and believing that leaving will magically solve all of the UK's problems is at best wishful thinking and at worst damaging and delusional.

Why didn't we remove it before then?

Sexism - we had a lot of casual (and not so casual) discrimination in those days. So you accept that EU (and it's previous incarnations) prevented us removing it for 45 years then.

@Havanananana

I totally agree - however, to listen to some folk, these are all things that the EU has made immeasurably better. It can't be both.

I seem to remember it was a British MP that got it moved down to 5% in 2000.

There was not campaign nor any large motivation to do anything more about it till 2014 and Laura Coyton starting the campaign. Please don't try to pretend that this was a major issue that the UK was held back from changing by the E.U. It was co-opted by UKIP in 2015 out of political opportunism.

Please don't try to pretend

I'm not trying to pretend anything - just asked a couple of questions.

"I totally agree - however, to listen to some folk, these are all things that the EU has made immeasurably better. It can't be both."

You are being facetious now. The EU has had an impact on some of these things at different levels, many of them positive, but its national government decisions which have the largest impact.

Reading some posts It is clear that Brexit is a religion

This. It doesn't matter how many facts you come up with, the vast majority still have zero clue about how valuable the EU is and trot out trite soundbites that they've heard someone else (usually Boris Johnson) quote at some point, like "the EU is a dinosaur". The EU is the largest, most successful, most experienced trading bloc on the planet. It has the highest health and safety, environmental and phsyto-sanitary regulations as well as a highly developed social policy. In general, these regulations are all things that in real life we like, eg very strict rules about what chemicals are allowed in the foods we eat!

It's constantly evolving, but of course any significant changes have to be approved by the national parliaments of 28 different member states so these things take time, but it has to be done this way as national parliaments are SOVEREIGN.

All this guff about leaving the EU because it will force our government to make changes is bollocks spouted either by the naive or the completely ignorant. Zero hours contracts? Banned in several EU countries, liked by the Tories because it makes welfare payments more difficult.

Britain has the worst wealth inequality of just about any of the member states, how is leaving the EU going to help in anyway, especially as our GDP will shrink, FDI and tax intake will both reduce. There will be less money to spend on public services or supporting the poor. Any policy changes that need to be made to address the poverty etc that some people live in is totally within the power of the UK government to do while we are members of the EU!

You are trying to pretend that this was a major issue that the UK was stopped from doing anything about.

In reality, the campaign was started in 2014 and in October 2018 the EU changed the rules so that VAT can be taken from these products.

You are trying to pretend that this was a major issue that the UK was stopped from doing anything about.

Stop telling outright lies. I asked a question about something. You then started to tell me what I think and how I am acting.

Stop being facetious, its exactly how you are acting you pretending that an emotive topic was of national importance and the EU stopped us doing anything about it out of political expediency, just like UKIP did when they jumped on the band wagon with it.

OP:

(a) Greece's difficulties, as best I understand them, are caused by the rate at which they went into the Euro which over-valued their currency making their labour/economy overly expensive. Regardless, how is the UK leaving the EU going to help change this? If we think the EU treated Greece badly then shouldn't we stay in and alter that behaviour?
(b) I'm not sure anyone is saying that the EU is a necessary construct for peace in Europe but it's certainly helped maintain it. Not sure the word insidious is warranted even if someone were claiming the EU was necessary.
(c) economic consequences for UK were always obvious given our manufacturing industry's strong ties to EU market. The Withdrawal Agreement reflects our dependence on full-access to the Single Market. Impacts for other members will vary.
(d) UK is free to withdraw to EFTA/EEA with limited impact on economy (still negative). The draft Withdrawal Agreement attempts to keep Single Market access to avoid economic impacts so demonstrates freedom of UK to balance economic and independence aims. Not sure UK's freedom is in doubt.
(e) Agree that there is a rise in nationalism. How is UK leaving EU going to help address this? Wouldn't it be better if UK remained and helped to carve out a place for independent member states within the EU boundary? Why give up our ability to achieve this if that's an aim?
(f) Think the opposite. In a global economy, it's necessary to have agreed trading norms to avoid unfair practices. EU embodies this approach and is often leading the regulatory environment in a number of industries. Why give up our ability to lead the EU's regulatory environment as we have done in many areas over the last 40 odd years?

In my view YABU.

Several leave voters think that Brexit will give the government a kick up the backside to support the regions.

They are in for a very nasty shock when the government carries on acting the way it always has
and the EU money that used to go to the regions ceases.

Oh yes.

The North East was the biggest net recipient of funds, followed by Cornwall.

They won't be getting funded from London.

Both in net tax deficit as well.

Both reliant on EU trade.

Gove, May, Johnson, Davis, Redwood and Rees-Mogg are all millionaires. Redwood and Rees-Mogg have been advising their clients to move their investments out of the UK and into the EU. How likely are these people to be concerned with the plight of the unemployed in Ashington or those in poverty in Peterlee? Could any of them find either town on a map?

I have read through all the posts and I really appreciate the fact that people are engaging in intelligent argument. I am just going to respond to one or two points.

First, I am not going to retire soon (and where was the EU to protect my 'rights' there?) It is more likely that I will continue working in the 'gig' economy until I drop.

Yes, I am expressing my opinions, but these are opinions based on experience. I do believe that Brexit offers us the opportunity for real change, yet change will not come through the simple act of withdrawal, but rather, through what may or could occur afterwards.

This idea may be 'delusional' yet weighed against the slow death that has coloured the past forty years, it is a happy delusion. People have said that remaining in the EU would give people like my sons the opportunity of working in any EU country, yet when someone cannot afford the bus fare to the next town, it is an empty promise.

To truly understand why so many people voted to leave, one has to understand the levels of poverty and inequality of opportunity that exist in this country. Yes, these are internal matters that arise from years of ineffective governance, but if a structure exists to somehow allay this, then that structure is not working and has never really worked.

This is, of course, my opinion and others will have vastly different views. Yet if someone can find reliable evidence that this country (as a whole) has actually prospered whilst in the EU, I will gladly cede that, on some points, I am a little unreasonable.

this country (as a whole) has actually prospered whilst in the EU

• Watch Auf Wiedersehn pet
• Read the contemporary news sources from when the UK was the "sick man of Europe"
• Understand why De Gaulle wanted to block the UK's entry

The UK has thrived under the EU better than most other members

The fact that UK governments do not give a stuff about the regions
and EU money had to pick up the slack
will get worse, not better after Brexit

OP I’m with you, I don’t think the EU has made anyone’s lives better except for the large corporations, but then our politicians are in the pockets of the large corporations anyway. Look at the role of the lobbyists, why are they not banned?

Either way, in or out, not one of these institutions gives a crap about the man on the street. It’s about money and power and greed, call me cynical but I don’t believe there is any true democracy.

We can’t really leave the EU anyway, as in hard Brexit, as the Corporations don’t like it. And whatever business wants is sure as shit not good for us morally or socially.

OP how will being out of the EU help you and your son? Or any poverty ridden town or people?
Is there anything particular you think will change/the government will do or is it all based on "hope"?

First, I am not going to retire soon (and where was the EU to protect my 'rights' there?)

Do you mean age of retirement? Pension and retirement age are decided by national governments and are totally outside the EU remit and vary widely by member state. I believe the UK has a less generous state pension than many other states.

Some of us are living that poverty, we don’t have to try and understand it. There is not one way in which my life will be measurably improved by leaving the EU and an infinite number of ways in which it could be made worse. Particularly given the track record of the Tory government over the last 10 years.

Even if any Leave voters could come up with an actual positive, I doubt that it would compensate for the lack of space in my budget for rising prices and more austerity cuts.

How can we prove the country would have been significantly worse off outside the EU?

We wouldn't have the Working Time Directive, Temporary Agency Workers Directive, banking regulations (Capital Banking Directive), clean water and The Good Friday Agreement.

Large areas of Wales and Cornwall would have had significantly less investment if not for the EU.

All of these have been very positive for the U.K.. I don't think U.K. governments of either flavour would have introduced these. So you are better off as a result of being in the EU.

I am deeply, deeply concerned about poverty in the U.K.. We have abandoned large sections of the country, we have much to be ashamed of but it is not the fault of the EU. Thatcher destroyed the mining and the steel industry - and no Labour didn't resurrect it - but once a pit has been closed it is very difficult to open it again.

BJ and JRM want you to want change but the change they want is chaos. Could it get worse you ask - yes it could get a lot worse.

The plan of the right and left who support Brexit is to throw the country into turmoil. They want it. JRM wants you to suffer - that's the plan.
Once you are really low and miserable they will be able to introduce even more extreme right wing laws.