Is the EU really such a good thing?

[shouldhavelistenedtom0ther]

I know that many people will tell me how naive I am and that I need a reality check. However, irrespective of how I 'voted' in the Referendum, I am now convinced that the European Union is not something to which I wish to belong.

I feel that (a) the Union offers a fallacy of equality between its member states. This is a fallacy that was made overt when Greece was in crisis three or four years ago and was 'threatened' with exclusion.
(b) There seems to be an insidious assumptions that because the Union was formed on the basis of creating peace between nations on a Post-War context, such peace is not possible without the constraints (and possibilities) afforded by the EU.
(c) If a member state decides to leave, then the impossibility of leaving without economic and social consequences to that member state have been made clear in the two years of negotiations surrounding Brexit.
(d) If (c), then issues of 'freedom' in its truest meaning are raised.
(e) There appears to be a great deal of unrest, Nationalism and disaffection for the Union in other member states and it is possible that the Union will divide or disintegrate in the near future.
(f) In a global economy and a world shrinking through technology, the idea of a united Europe seems outdated and misplaced.

I am not satisfied with the so called 'deal' that is being discussed/sold at the moment. However, I am becoming more and more convinced that the EU is something that has been miss-sold to a lot of nations.

AIBU to think leaving the EU is possibly the 'right' decision despite the inevitable economic consequences?

Totally agree OP. The sooner we leave the better, for us and our children, and their children.

Curiousaboutsamphire
Your healthcare numbers are because

• lots of Brits live and holiday in Spain and use their EHIC cards to access its healthcare system

• lots of Brits live and holiday in France and use their EHIC cards to access its healthcare system

• the French and Spaniards who visit and live in the UK are less of a drain on our systems

When we leave the EU many of those pensioners will come home and be a drain on the NHS directly

The sooner we leave the better, for us and our children, and their children.

Apart from it won't be. Say you want to leave by all means but don't pretend it will be better.

We just subsidize the poorer countries from what I can see
The amount that the UK pays into the EU is less than 1% of total government spending.

I don't really have much of a problem with rich countries subsidising poorer ones. It's a moral issue isn't it? Particularly considering most rich countries gained their wealth historically from the poorer ones.

I’m not the biggest fan of the EU, but I still think it’s better to be inside the tent pissing out then outside pissing in.

And regarding subsidising poorer countries, that’s just the same as what happens inside the UK - taxes paid by London subsidise the rest of the country.

Just out of interest, what is the objection to an EU army? Is it the fear that it would be used by the powerful countries against the less powerful? Or more of a security risk? Or just the perceived loss of "sovereignty"?

The EU is a bit like Democracy
not perfect but better than the alternative

The EU is a democratic institution. We have a voice and a veto. We have power and influence. We don't always get our own way but that is how negotiations work.

The EU negotiators are brilliant at their job - look what they have done to our 'deal'. I want those people negotiating for me not against me.

Europe and the world is facing a crisis of populism and nationalism. This is the time you stand together and strengthen your ties with your neighbours. You don't spit your dummy out and go home. We need to stand firm with our European allies not run away.

There has been peace in Western Europe between EU members. This isn't an insidious assumption, this is demonstrably true.

In a global economy we need to be part of a group. We are stronger together.

The EU is not perfect but the other options are worse. Isolationism as a policy does not work. Strength in unity. We need to seek similarities not differences and work together.

@Curiousaboutsamphire

Like so many problems in the UK, the healthcare payments issue highlights how poor the UK is at implementing the rules, even when it is to the advantage of the country.

Over the years I have had to use the healthcare services whilst on holiday abroad in the EU. The very first thing that patients receive is a form asking for EHIC card or insurance details, plus passport details. If these are unavailable, the hospital reception will ask for a credit card. While they won't refuse to treat patients, they will ensure that they know who to bill for the treatment.

In the UK this debate has been had many times - should foreign patients be forced to give their details when they go to A&E or to a GP? The answer has always been that this does not sit well with the UK psyche, nurses should not be gatekeepers etc. so nothing gets done.

As the report to which you somewhat selectively to refer quite clearly states - if the UK got its act together and actually billed the EU countries for the healthcare provided to their citizens, the income to the NHS would be about £340m instead of £50m.

It was a great thing for Volkswagen. They could easily deceive with their fake diesel test reports with EU impunity, and inflict major pollution on the whole of Europe with their resulting increased car sales in EU. So, I'd say, on the whole, its been good for German car sales, but not much else. Also good for property owners and investors in London/UK - as property prices rise with increased demand.

Oh forgot, its good for Euro bureaucrats spending their expenses huffing and puffing in restaurants over cigars and wine, doing sod all basically. Good for legislators. Good for translators.

Europe and the world is facing a crisis of populism and nationalism. This is the time you stand together and strengthen your ties with your neighbours. You don't spit your dummy out and go home. We need to stand firm with our European allies not run away.

hear, hear!

its good for Euro bureaucrats spending their expenses huffing and puffing in restaurants over cigars and wine, doing sod all basically
The EU has 33,000 civil servants

The UK has 440,000
lots more cigars and wine in Whitehall than Brussels

Everything that moussemoose said.

It was created for industrialists and agri - barons. How could Adenauer ensure that Germany wasn't riven with industrial strife? Allow for the free movement of workers to undercut wages and suppress trade unions. A limitless supply of cheap labour is the capitalists dream.

Please stop @ing me!

I am not sure why some of you are very patiently explaining the NHS issues to me when I said, in short, much what is being expanded upon (even using the same sources)

But thanks for your patience

Allow for the free movement of workers to undercut wages and suppress trade unions.
That was Thatcher's idea actually.
She was the one who pushed hardest for the single market

@Curiousaboutsamphire
People are tagging you because you utterly misunderstood the statistcs.
They show that Brits benefit more from EHICs than the French or Spaniards
not that the UK gets a hard deal

THOUSANDS of British pensioners are registered with Spanish GPs
less than 50 Spanish pensioners are registered with British GPs

Well if Euro bureaucrats spending their expenses huffing and puffing in restaurants over cigars and wine, doing sod all basically they are doing a damm fine job.

Because in between cigars and wine they have out negotiated the U.K.. These very skilful civil servants have handed our arse to us. Our first negotiation on our own and it seems we are crap. The rest of the world is circling like vultures wanting to pick our bones.

When you see someone doing a good job you want to be on their team not fight against them.

@shouldhavelistenedtom0ther

a) Greece was threatened with sanctions because it had lied about its finances. Once the discrepancy had been acknowledged, the EU quite rightly required that Greece put its house in order before receiving any more support.

b) This is a straw-man argument. Establishing common rules for the European countries has certainly allowed peace to flourish over the last 70 years and put an end to centuries of conflicts and disputes. There is no way of knowing what would have happened without this cooperation.

c) Of course leaving the Union has consequences for the country that leaves. The promoters of Brexit believed that leaving would make the UK stronger; that the UK could continue to benefit from all of the benefits of EU membership with none of the costs or responsibilities and so on. Now that these promises have been shown to be false, Brexiters are queuing up to place the blame on the EU rather on their own misreading of the situation.

d) This is just a repeat of c). Any country is free to leave the EU. Leaving has consequences, otherwise there would be no point in leaving. These consequences might be good or might be bad. It is becoming clearer by the day that the promises of Johnson, Fox and Davis were nothing more than a fusillade of flatulence and that leaving has the possibility of being very bad for the UK.

e) Claims of anti-EU unrest and imminent disintegration of the EU is straight from the Brexit Book of Cliches. If anything there is now more support for the EU in Europe than there was 2 years ago.

f) In a global economy, the major players are the trading blocs that have come together to counter the weight of the most populous countries (USA, Russia, China, India) in order to prevent the smaller countries losing out. If the UK leaves the EU it will very quickly begin to understand how standing alone is not much of an option.

See, I know what the @ does and why... I would just like people to to bold instead! I don't want to constantly be invited back to a thread I am present in. bold works really well!

And you are assuming something I haven't said! I haven't utterly misunderstood the stats, I was shocked at the disparity, what it meant about the relative movements of people across the EU!

I was also shocked at the possible reasons for it! Them being so very different from the headlines we are usually fed by all sides of any Brexit debate!

As the report to which you somewhat selectively to refer quite clearly states Selectively? I quoted both the 'hysteria' and a range of possible explanations from a site known to myth bust the worst of the usual journalistic hype.

Maybe I should have written a whole essay...

Any response OP?

@CuriousaboutSamphire
Your own comment about the NHS payments report was:

Yet more say that the NHS simply cannot work out who/what it can charge for, leading me to wonder why there hasn't been an EU directive to make this more transparent?

All of which boils down to the inescapable fact that the EU is indeed inequitable, not the democracy we like to think it is!

How much more can the EU do? The UK is allowed to charge for the treatment, as the report clearly states, but chooses not to do so (or cannot get itself sufficiently organised to do so). How can the EU be criticised for this?

The MP that you quote attempted to make a political dig at the EU. You have decided to conclude that it is an 'inescapable fact that the EU is indeed inequitable'