Is the EU really such a good thing?

[shouldhavelistenedtom0ther]

I know that many people will tell me how naive I am and that I need a reality check. However, irrespective of how I 'voted' in the Referendum, I am now convinced that the European Union is not something to which I wish to belong.

I feel that (a) the Union offers a fallacy of equality between its member states. This is a fallacy that was made overt when Greece was in crisis three or four years ago and was 'threatened' with exclusion.
(b) There seems to be an insidious assumptions that because the Union was formed on the basis of creating peace between nations on a Post-War context, such peace is not possible without the constraints (and possibilities) afforded by the EU.
(c) If a member state decides to leave, then the impossibility of leaving without economic and social consequences to that member state have been made clear in the two years of negotiations surrounding Brexit.
(d) If (c), then issues of 'freedom' in its truest meaning are raised.
(e) There appears to be a great deal of unrest, Nationalism and disaffection for the Union in other member states and it is possible that the Union will divide or disintegrate in the near future.
(f) In a global economy and a world shrinking through technology, the idea of a united Europe seems outdated and misplaced.

I am not satisfied with the so called 'deal' that is being discussed/sold at the moment. However, I am becoming more and more convinced that the EU is something that has been miss-sold to a lot of nations.

AIBU to think leaving the EU is possibly the 'right' decision despite the inevitable economic consequences?

It’s not ageist to point out a simple fact. And it is an important point.

Burying our heads in the sand about it isn’t going to help. It’ll require action and some policy changes.

@Clionba

We pay more in to the EU than the subsidies returned. It's a bit like giving your child £10 to buy you a Christmas present.

You're ignoring the economic benefit of being in the single market and customs union, of frictionless trade, of cooperation in science, research, defence and policing. That is worth billions.

It's the reason why the projections from Bank of England etc are so negative, because this is what we will lose.

Your comment is like saying - I paid £50 for this football match ticket and all I got was this lousy match programme. It's not the main point of the exercise!

I know, dapplegrey! The pity is the inability of some people to respect other's views, or engage with them without name calling. I used to have a colleague who was a Tory Councillor. Boy did we disagree, but we had some great conversations!

No, it's not like that at all, cuppaqueen.
If you read Thatcher's autobiography, it's quite illuminating on the subsidies.

There’s plenty of people who whine about older people returning to the U.K. and accessing the nhs. Yes RAF your ageist. The simple fact is that other EU countries don’t gave free medical care. I had a long conversation with a polish women in out patients. She was with her grandmother who didn’t speak English and hadn’t been in the U.K. for long . She thought it was great that she was getting free medical care and benefit payments she wouldn’t get in Poland. I agreed with her. However muppets on here are moaning about U.K. citizens obtaining the same treatment.

Bellinisurge I am a bit shocked at your response to someone whose view are different to yours. Is this how you would reasonably discuss Brexit ? Should this not be a platform for polite informed debate? The worst thing about Brexit is the vitriol that has been unleashed. When we voted to join the EU, and I did, there was no mention about stopping wars, freedom of movement or super power states. It was a Common Market, ie a trade deal. Thats not what we got

The world economy is
25% China
25% USA
25% EU
25% Rest of world

This is so important, and it's not just economically, that's how the balance of political and security power is held as well (although with Russia high up there because of its big military resources and rather aggressive foreign policy). In the modern world, we are not powerful enough alone to be a major international voice. Much of our economic success has been because of our EU membership - just look at the picture in the 60s and 70s before we joined the EEC. There has been discontent for years about the UK and France having independent seats on the UN security council. I wouldn't be surprised if the EU were to replace the British and French seats, especially if they do create a combined military capability. We can't hang on to our historical influence forever.

As for subsidising poorer countries, I presume people mean mainly the Eastern European countries, youu have to understand the context of Eastward expansion. The end of the Cold War left a sudden power vacuum in E. Europe. There caused a lot of concern in the USA in particular. It was the UK, at the urging of the US, who were the major force in pushing for the countries in Eastern Europe to be brought into the EU as soon as possible to stabilise the region and encourage democracy.

Yes you're being unreasonable.
a) It's patronising in the extreme to say Brexit is about standing up for the rights of less powerful countries in the EU. They're lining up to join and none of the ones that have joined want to leave. Greece messed up its economy through mismanagement and although the EU solution has been unpopular, there's still no real movement to leave the EU in Greece. If anything, people see they would well and truly be screwed without it.
b) Incredibly flippant about peace. Maybe peace would be possible without the EU, but let's just say it wasn't for the thousand years or so previous to it. I think only a country that wasn't repeatedly ruined and trashed by war and invasion would treat peace so lightly.
c and d) There is freedom to leave. It's just such a good system that it makes no sense to leave. That's why Brexit is stupid. You've got the freedom to shoot yourself in the foot then rub it with cow dung, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
e) There is a tide of populism around the world which is caused by anger at injustice and inequality. Those things are not the EU's fault. They're the fault of the murky tax-dodging profiteers who are the real money behind Brexit.
f) doesn't make sense. The world is a more connected, linked up place so let's leave a major trading bloc and go it alone?

The choice is between economic ruination under no deal, loss of power under a deal or being grown up and choosing to remain because it's the only sensible option.

Brexiters are just wallowing in the feeling of having some kind of power, even if it's something that blows up in their faces. It's incredibly childish.

@Clionba

Er, yes it is! We pay for membership so that we can enjoy the trade and economic benefits of the single market and customs union. That is worth billions in additional revenues to the Treasury from taxation of those enterprises and workers. Yes, we also get subsidies back directly from the EU for specific industries and projects but that is not the main reason for being in the club.

I did read Thatcher's autobiography years ago for my sins but feel free to remind me what she said about subsidies. It doesn't change the fact that we profit enormously from our membership irrespective of what subsidies we receive. Whatever else you think of her, Thatcher was canny and she knew Britain would profit massively from the single market which she helped to create!!

Rafals my mum worked nearly 60 years. As a women she clawed her way up the corporate ladder. Paid alot of NI and tax. Take your fucking head out of the sand and stop being an idiot. You’ve disrespected my mother and every woman who fought sexism.

I was disgusted by the way the eu as a whole dealt with the migrant crisis. First the southern states are ignored by the rest left to deal Witham unprecedented influx of refugees alone. Then the German chancellor invited refugees to Germany (knowing the German asylum policy is very strict and not offering them safe passage knowing that most of them will either die or end up stranded somewhere along the way)-it was basically genicude by allurment. Then the other member states failed to condem this and continued to pretty much ingnoreworsening cobdition in southern states. It’s was pretty clear after that that the EU is not an equal partnership and that some of our partners haven’t really moved into the 21st century. I still feel sick thinking about it.

I competely agree Race. We need to stop calling the EU the eu and start calling it what germany and France wants.

@Cupaqueen, well we'll just need to agree to disagree as I have to go now, but thank you for engaging with me in a polite and dignified manner!

Racecardiver
I have to hope you are drunk posting
as accusing the Germans of genocide against recent refugees is beyond the pale
reported

@Clionba I am always happy to have a respectful debate. To be continued perhaps

@Talkinpeece Agreed

@Racecardriver while you're being so holier than thou about the EU, what was the UK's response to the migrant crisis? How many did we help?

She was with her grandmother who didn’t speak English and hadn’t been in the U.K. for long . She thought it was great that she was getting free medical care and benefit payments she wouldn’t get in Poland.

Who was getting the free medical care and benefits? Your post is ambiguous, perhaps on purpose?

If it was the woman you spoke to - if she was resident in the UK and working and paying tax like a UK national then she was entitled to both.

If it was the grandmother then as a visitor she was entitled to healthcare if she had an EHIC card. She wouldn't be entitled to benefits under UK or EU law. Unfortunately bureaucracy in the UK is often too messy to coordinate simple things like this.

And yes other EU countries provide free healthcare. HTH

Gosh this thread makes me feel 2 years younger Wonder why it hasn't been moved to the Brexit board yet. It wouldn't be because it's pro-leave... Surely not...

I reckon all I know is that if I had 20-odd mates in my life I could probably trust one or two of em to speak up for and with me, even if i was grumpy and hormonal and talking a load of shit.

I'd rather that than tying myself in knots with one mate who I knew already was a slimey untrustworthy sneaky snakey git who'd sell me down the Swanee for tuppence and a shot of vodka.

And I think, despite all their talk of trade deals here there and everywhere, that's where we're headed.

You’ve disrespected my mother and every woman who fought sexism.

What?!?

Oh do fuck of AND. Vep it was the grandmother who wa getting the free nhs cara. Her mum had been here for less than 6 months.
I thinks it great that she received care. It’s not right though is it.

Sorry Reb I posted in the wrong thread.

All those who complain about how the EU treated Greece and the migrants - I presume you thought then that the UK should have contributed money to Greece/taken in more migrants? After all, we were the EU.

Oh do fuck of AND. Vep it was the grandmother who wa getting the free nhs cara. Her mum had been here for less than 6 months.
I thinks it great that she received care. It’s not right though is it.

Of course it's right. If she was lawfully resident she should have the same access to healthcare as everyone else. And it's reciprocal. I needed medical care 3 days after migrating from the UK to another EU state. I didn't have to pay either.

A bit like Brits on holiday getting pissed and needing health care
on a scale that they make TV programmes about it ....

The EU is a great thing for small member states. By being part of a large trading block they are able to access a much greater domestic market, while benefitting from preferential deals with other countries (Japan, Korea etc.). Sort of like a giant GroupOn.

It also gives individual countries much more global influence. The most powerful blocs in the world are China, the US and the EU. No individual country comes close.

The EU prioritises worker’s rights and consumer standards. Hence limits on working hours and on chlorinated chicken to prevent a race to the bottom. This is the ‘red tape’ that Boris complained about. A far cry from the US with 10 days annual leave and hormone fed beef.

Yes, it also helps peace. NI is not the only area in Europe with disputed borders. Under the EU these borders cease to matter so ancient disputes can gradually fade away. To see the impact of the EU, just look at how the issues of NI and Gibraltar have raised their head since the referendum. These territory disputes are not unique.

Also, just look at UK relations with its neighbours post-Brexit. Hardly great. By meeting every month, EU heads of state get to establish friendships which avoids the hostilities and suspicion of the past.

Yes, I think it’s great.