The boy that influences the other kid to be naughty and mean :(

[FroggyLoggy]

More a WWYD ... please help :)

So, in reception, DS1 was under the influence of a boy, let's call him Ethan. Ethan and DS1 were constantly in trouble together and DS1 was acting way out of character, being mean to other kids, aggressive etc... (he was never ever like this at nursery and is a lovely lovely boy at home). We knew it was the influence of Ethan, but couldn't keep DS1 away from him. Countless emails and conversations with school, copious amounts of worry, and we came extremely close to removing DS1 from the school simply to get him away from Ethan.

Year 1, fantastic teacher separated them at start of year and DS1 made a HUGE effort to stay away from 'Ethan'. For basically all of year 1, DS1 was his old self again, stayed away from Ethan (who found other boys to influence and get in trouble with) and he had a great, happy, well behaved year 1.

Now year 2, message wasn't relayed to class teacher about the history between DS1 and Ethan, and we just found out DS1 had been placed next to Ethan in most lessons. Friendship has re-kindled and now DS1 is back to being under his influence and already he's started being mean to another kid (which he would NEVER ever think to do if Ethan want there). School have now separated them during classes at my request, but I fear it's too late as they r now friends again.

Please help me! How can I encourage DS1 to stop playing with Ethan. I've tried everything. I fear it will be like the nightmare reception year all over again :( Poor Ethan is only 6, but I really can't stand him and wish he'd moe away/leave the school. I know it's not his fault, it's his home life, but his influence on DS1 is destroying me. I want my old DS1 back again

He always feels bad as it's not his character. He knows it's not nice to be mean and I don't like making him feel worse than he already does.

He may tell you he feels bad bullying others but it’s not really true, otherwise he wouldn’t do it again.

You need to make him feel worse about his behaviour, if he was really ashamed he’d stop and stand up to Ethan.

I’m sorry, it does sound like you are being far too soft about this.

I’m sure he is a good kid, but his classmates won’t think so. They’ll think he’s a nasty bully. And so will their parents.

Is that the reputation you want your DS to have?

You really need to nip this in the bud quickly.

Well how about giving him a hard time over his behaviour.

'I expect better from you - how dare you behave that way'. Get angry at him. Stop all the star charts etc - chuck them out and tell him why. No more Soft Mummy all concerned and upset. Get your big pants on and tell him off properly.

Arrange a meeting with the teacher to discuss his behaviour and ban all discussion of Ethan. Ethan is irrelevant. Your son's behaviour isn't. Ask the school to give him detentions, sanctions for his behaviour. Make sure he's there when you ask, and ensure you've agreed with the teacher before hand that this is going to be a 'we're done with this now, time to come down on this behaviour' type of meeting.

Then time out, treats cancelled, swimming cancelled, no TV etc. Time for tough love.

Imo sometimes a child needs to be properly told off for unacceptable behaviour and that might even involve speaking sharply, making it very clear that you are disgusted by his behaviour and telling him that it will not be tolerated.

I realise 'punishment' is a dirty word for many on MN but quite honestly I think some parents are hamstrung by their fear of ever upsetting their child or causing a moments unhappiness and are obsessed with constantly being positive in all dealings with their dc. I'm 100% positive if my dc were doing what your DS is doing I'd come down on them like a tonne of bricks. Role play games and star charts aren't proving much of a deterrent, are they?

OP it’s not about being harsher, it’s about having firm boundaries and guidance.

Bullying and violence are the few behaviours I have zero tolerance for. You need to work out which behaviours are totally unacceptable to you and have consequences. As well as trying to teach an alternative way to behave.

Small stuff like forgetting homework, use a star chart and rewards etc.

It certainly sounds like you have tried to correct this behaviour but the fact that he has answered your suggestion of trying to positively influence ‘Ethan’ with “it’s impossible mummy” means he knows what he’s doing is wrong. Therefore he realises he is making wrong choices but isn’t preventing himself from making these choices.

Why doesn’t just walk away? What is Ethan’s hold over him? Can you get the lunchtime supervisors on board? They can look out for things happening in the playground.

Just seen your update.

If you're determined to feel helpless there's nothing anyone can do.

One of the most damaging things a parent can teach a child is that they're not responsible for their own actions.

Has it ever occurred to you that 'Ethan's' mother might well be saying exactly the same things about your son?

You need to make him feel worse in the short term to stop him being a nasty bully in the long term.

Your choice.

Sockwomble - I think that's part of the problem, yes. It's not that he has a difficulty making friends so much as there isn't really anyone in his class that he clicks with, most of his friends are in other classes in the year, and Ethan shares the same interest (football mainly!)

Nona grey - I get your point, but he already does feel ashamed. He doesn't say so, but I can see it in his face when he tells me what he's done, and he will write in his diary that he feels bad and made a mistake :( (that's not a stealth boast! He's not super clever! It's just jumbled writing! But you can decipher!) I honestly don't think making him feel worse will help. he already genuinely does feel ashamed :(

You are actually modelling the exact same behaviour you want him to stop with Ethan

I can't do anything. It's not my fault. I can't change this. Oh woe is me I feel terrible but what can I do.

No wonder that's how he behaves with Ethan.

x post.

He doesn't feel half ashamed enough. If he did, he would stop It actually is that simple.

Don't excuse it as a mistake. it is NOT a mistake. He is CHOOSING to do this.

OP how about a chart of consequences and rewards?

For example bullying - consequence - no swimming or whatever. Reward - no bullying, no joining in with Ethan, no report from school for a week - a star, a treat or whatever.

Clearly your approach is not working. What privileges do you withdraw after each incident, what action does school take? Meet his teacher and discuss strategies which you can each reinforce. He might be a nice child but he is making conscious choices to act this way.

If there are other classes in his year, and he has friends in those classes, would the school move him to a different class?

Have the spoken to you about your ds behaviour?
Have they spoken to the other child's parents? Are Ethans parents aware of his behaviour in school?

He knows it's not nice to be mean and I don't like making him feel worse than he already does.

Might he melt?

Punishment isn’t to make him feel worse, it’s to deter him from doing it again. He needs to feel a real consequence of his actions otherwise he learns that all he has to do is look ashamed and he’s off the hook.

Consequence: you were bullying Jack (yes bullying. That’s what he is doing) so clearly you cannot he trusted to behave properly around friends. You won’t be allowed out to play for 1 week.

Ethan's parents probably think your son is the influencer; moral of the story is your son needs to take responsibility for his own actions.

What is it with parents these days. biggest thing we here when there is trouble. Stabbing. Bullying.

“Oh it’s not my child’s fault , he / she got in with a bad crowd.”
“ someone gave them the knife “

Man up and parent.

Is it possible that as things went so well in Y1, you have stepped back a bit? Believing the issue was 'sorted'.

Clearly things were bad in reception, and you worked on it, but it was not quite enough. Then there was a break in summer - giving some distance, a pro-active teacher, and continuing support from you (support as in, giving DS the tools to make the right choices) and the year 1 went well. So there was no 'issue' for the teacher to pass on to the next one, and you stopped doing all your supportive work with DS at home. Then the problem came back.

So perhaps you have been doing all the right things and the only problem is that you have stopped doing them?

Don't give up on all the role-play and all the other ways you supported DS in reception to make the right choices. And don't despair either - sometimes this is a lesson that takes years to go in. Your 7yo now is also at a different place, developmentally, than your 5yo was in reception. The 'lessons' you teach him about responsibility for his own choices, and the tools you give him for dealing with situations, will be received differently this time round. You also have a positive experience to draw on, a whole year of keeping out of trouble. Remind DS that he was able to make the right choices that year, and how much better it felt compared to constantly being in trouble.

In particular, I think I would explore with DS what is going on in the moment he 'follows Ethan's lead' and makes bad choices, e.g. to do something that is mean.

I can imagine that in the moment, he feels rather conflicted. He doesn't really want to be mean and knows it isn't right. But equally, he feels an obligation of loyalty to Ethan who he now regards as friend. Or he feels a desire to impress Ethan whose approval he craves. (Or something else. Ask DS!).
Then depending on what it is that overrides his 'normal' aversion to being mean, either make it clear to him that being kind is more important than being loyal to a friend who is behaving questionably. He might genuinely be feeling unsure about this priority! So some reminding/clarifying could help.
Or show him how little he actually needs Ethan's approval: His value as a person is not dependent on Ethan, but only on his own choices. Remind him of all his good sides and build his confidence in himself, if it is for 'approval' that he is doing all these things.

At a 'mature' age 7, you could also consider having a chat along the lines of "We don't know what lies behind Ethan's bad choices. There might be something going on and he might not know how to deal with things in a different, better way. Perhaps he just really wants to be liked but doesn't know how to go about it except for impressing one child by being mean to another. We really don't know what it is, why Ethan ends up frequently making these bad choices. But whatever it is that makes it hard for Ethan, it does not apply to you. You have different options. You know how to behave well and be kind, and you know that it feels better, overall, and that people like you for it. You have the tools, the ability, to make better choices."
That would reinforce the message to your DS that Ethan's behaviour is not acceptable (so must not be copied/gone along with), without making him out to be a monster. DS can still be friends with Ethan.
And would reinforce that your DS has choices, and must make better choices than Ethan, even if Ethan is his friend.

You need to teach your DS to make good choices which at that age can hard as they are easily influenced but he has to take responsibility for his own behaviour.

Encourage him to make other friends. Speak to your teachers, see if there are play time activities especially at lunchtime which he can go to without Ethan. There should be clubs etc on at lunch time that he can attend, get the teachers to get him to go, it will help him build different friendships and will keep him and Ethan apart. I’ve been through this with my own and this has really helped.

Ok all, the message is sinking in! I will get a bit harsher! And I will try and blame Ethan less in front of DS (but will continue to secretly seethe!!) and get him taking more responsibility (it's been good for me to hear your honest thoughts and now I'm over the defensiveness! I will take on board your comments! Thank you!!)

(School don't have a problem with DS, he's considered a good kid most of the time and school were very proud of him last year, and how hard he tried, and he was one of best behaved in the class through all of year 1 (while Ethan continued to cause trouble and other parents were in the 'help, please stop him influencing my child' mode - I witnessed parents actively moving their kids away from Ethan at family events etc...). Ethan is well known to the school and there some safeguardinf concerns potentially with his family. (If I was in a different role, say a teacher or SeN worker, Ethan would probably be one of my favourite kids! I actually like his spark and would enjoy working with him and trying to help him. But as a parent, my main concern right now is my own son, and in parent role, I just wish Ethan wasn't in he picture).

Your son has choices to make. Even little children understand choices. Encourage other children for play dates etc but also punish the bad behaviour.