The boy that influences the other kid to be naughty and mean :(

[FroggyLoggy]

More a WWYD ... please help :)

So, in reception, DS1 was under the influence of a boy, let's call him Ethan. Ethan and DS1 were constantly in trouble together and DS1 was acting way out of character, being mean to other kids, aggressive etc... (he was never ever like this at nursery and is a lovely lovely boy at home). We knew it was the influence of Ethan, but couldn't keep DS1 away from him. Countless emails and conversations with school, copious amounts of worry, and we came extremely close to removing DS1 from the school simply to get him away from Ethan.

Year 1, fantastic teacher separated them at start of year and DS1 made a HUGE effort to stay away from 'Ethan'. For basically all of year 1, DS1 was his old self again, stayed away from Ethan (who found other boys to influence and get in trouble with) and he had a great, happy, well behaved year 1.

Now year 2, message wasn't relayed to class teacher about the history between DS1 and Ethan, and we just found out DS1 had been placed next to Ethan in most lessons. Friendship has re-kindled and now DS1 is back to being under his influence and already he's started being mean to another kid (which he would NEVER ever think to do if Ethan want there). School have now separated them during classes at my request, but I fear it's too late as they r now friends again.

Please help me! How can I encourage DS1 to stop playing with Ethan. I've tried everything. I fear it will be like the nightmare reception year all over again :( Poor Ethan is only 6, but I really can't stand him and wish he'd moe away/leave the school. I know it's not his fault, it's his home life, but his influence on DS1 is destroying me. I want my old DS1 back again

'Bullies work in groups and every member is a bully '

Disagree. I think there's normally a clear leader and everyone else, whether they appear to be their friend or their victim, is essentially being bullied.

My DS had an Ethan who he was great mates with and he ended up knocking my DS' front teeth out. Ethans can be extremely charismatic and toxic.

Yes of course work on your son's independence but you need some help here not just a load of shitty comments about how it's all down to you.

Approach senior leadership team and senco if you haven't already; at our school there was a group they ran for people having friendship/bullying issues and I think it helped.

I agree that was a great post @rurarura. Straight to the heart of the matter!

I know what OP means.

When my DS was younger he was sometimes lead along by others into behaviour he would never do under his own initiative (he wasn't very socially confident and liked to be included and always wanted to join in). I remember thinking god if only Anthony wasn't there DS would never have done that. I was right too if Anthony wasn't there DS wouldn't have done that. The thing is though Anthony is there and there will always be an Anthony there, as they get older avoiding Anthony becomes much less easy than making sure your son isn't the one sitting next to Anthony or Ethan (and there's always an Anthony or Ethan).

Kids need to learn to be kind and behave well not just when we've arranged the circumstances perfectly for them but all the time. Some kids naturally have more will power and confidence to tread their own path and others are more easily lead. If your son is the latter the focus has to be on helping him find the confidence to choose his own behaviour. Much better he does that now in Y2 when the naughtiness just involves being cheeky in class pr using unkind words than when they're 15.

I've suggested to DS to try and influence Ethan to behave nicely but he says 'it's impossible mummy

I get the feeling that your ds is enjoying you seeing Ethan as the bad enemy and your son as innocent victim. I'd invite Ethan for a play date but that's just me.

Are you a people pleaser OP. Some feel it is a major requirement to be nice, and also to be seen to be nice,not particularly wanting to be successful, a leader of men,high achiever but just a really nice person. But 'nice' people won't be likely to stand up for themselves (in case the other person is upset) or make selfish decisions on what is best for them (as pleasing others is more important). Could this be influencing DS.

DS's best friend in primary was an "Ethan" always in trouble and I heard other parents talking about him like OP is talking about "Ethan".
I found him one of the politest little boys I ever met and he actually looked up to DS. School liked DS and "Ethan" being friends as DS was a good influence.
They really were an odd couple and eventually went there seperate ways.

"Ethan " made me do it is never a good excuse

I agree rurarura's post is good except for a big, big problem in the middle which she/he could just as well have left out, but which I don't feel comfortable just letting stand:

You made a comparison to Hitler influencing grown men to do bad things. He did, he influenced weak men and women to do bad things, and those men and women went to prison or got shot when the allies won the war.

Hitler did not influence weak men and women to do bad things. That is not just a simplification or short-hand, it is simply wrong. And it implies that being influenced by others is a character flaw. (Also hardly any of them 'got shot' after the war... the holocaust couldn't have happened without the vast majority of the country 'going along' with it, and did you see half the people executed?! Probably the minority of the worst actors actually experienced a tough consequence.)

He managed to get a whole country full of people to do, and go along with, and accept, and close their eyes to, horrendous things. Also lots of other countries were fully aware of what was going on and didn't feel it necessary to do anything about it, until very late in the day.That has nothing to do with being 'weak'.
Instead, it demonstrates how nearly everyone, anyone, can get to the point of accepting wrongs. It demonstrates that being 100% resistant to influence from other people is impossible.
We are social beings who don't do well without interpersonal relations, and only ever create and live our values in relation to the values held and lived by the people around us.

With regards to my children, I certainly hope that it is possible to influence them. How else should I be able to parent them?
As long as they are little, I can hope to influence then in a way that they grow to subscribe to the same values that I hold, rather than to some of the nastier (IMO) values they encounter in their own lives. As they grow older, I am sure they will develop their own set of values, which will certainly in part be in direct contrast to mine.
I do not want to teach them to never be influenced by anyone. I do want to encourage them not do things they themselves would regret. So at times, to stop and think if the course of action they are on is actually in line with their own values.
I want them to make the choices that they think are right, not the choices that will avoid consequences/punishment. (E.g. I won't say the mean thing because it isn't right vs Oh I can say the mean thing now because I won't be caught/punished.)

As long as they are little, I hope to influence their values that they match mine, mainly by living them myself/being an example, but also by explaining; this does involve boundaries and consequences, before anyone asks. And equally I try to teach them to follow their conscience rather than instructions, be it from a 'naughty friend' or by the authorities - because going along with the authorities is in part what led the German people commit the horrifying atrocities of the holocaust.

@brilliotic I agree with you and did not mean to generalise or simplify that situation. What I was actually trying to say is that shifting the blame onto others, as some Germans did after the war when they claimed they only did 'as they were told' does not necessarily hold up when it comes to later punishment.

Reading it back, I do realise I shouldn't have said that only weak people were influenced by Hitler, this is of course ridiculous. I also agree that being influenced by others is not always bad, influencing and manipulating are not the same thing however.

I think manipulation is never a good thing (except maybe in data!) and certain people are more resilient than others when someone is trying to manipulate them. I think that becoming resistant to manipulation can be taught, or at least positively reinforced through advocating confidence, self-reliance and assertiveness.

Sorry if I've caused offence, I was rambling a little as I felt quite passionate about the issue, and I should have proofread my post!

This thread has derailed because people have been (in a very Ethan like manner) preyed on your lack of confidence

Your honest and passionate perspective as "an Ethan" is useful and interesting but you possibly project a little too much of your own personality traits into your interpretations.

I haven’t read the whole thread OP but have (or had) a similar situation with my DD who was being influenced by child A, child A was telling her to do naughty things.

What I did which helped was get DD to think about the situation herself. Instead of telling her to stay away from A, we had a conversation a bit like this:

• what happens when you play with A and they tell you to do something bad and you do it (“I get in trouble”)
• do you like that (no)
• so do you end up feeling happy after playing with A (no)
• do you get in trouble when you play with other people (no)
• so do you end up happier if you play with other people (yes)

(Let DD draw her own conclusions)

• why do you think A tells you to do naughty things (no answer)
• Do you think A knows you will get in trouble if you do it (yes)
• Do you think a nice friend would want you to get in trouble (no)

(Let DD draw own conclusion about A)

DD has now decided that A isn’t all that and is seeking out other friends.

Meanwhile A has improved anyway, I believe. So don’t write Ethan off forever.

Legally there is "group enterprise" if you are in the group that does wrong even if you are not Ethan holding the knife you go down.

@brilliotic I agree with you to an extent, influencing our children is a part of parenting, we are social animals, and sometimes we compromise, balancing the interests of more than one person. But in Germany during the time Hitler was in power there was dissent, from citizens risking their lives hiding people from prosecuted groups, to the White Rose Group, to Germans joining the French Resistance. The White Rose Group were young people who risked their lives writing, producing and distributing large numbers of pamphlets which sought to challenge information provided by Hitler and two (or three?) lost their lives when caught, they were executed. These are examples of people who had independence of mind and strength of character to not go along with the rhetoric.

There were very very few dissenters in Germany sadly - the white rose group was small and their efforts widely publicised unlike countries that were forcibly invaded (France Holland) which had much more widespread resistance. Not a historian but saw documentary on this

Absolutely there was dissent and resistance, and I have the highest respect for these people (and their parents, what a great job they did!); for it seems that it is a very standard 'human' reaction to go along with things until 'they come for you'.

Getting back to OP, as everyone has said repeatedly, of course it is important for the child to learn that they have agency, choices, and accordingly, responsibility for their own actions. But I think it is also important to recognise that people, and especially children who are still learning their place in the world, make their choices in a social context of other people around them, their values and behaviours.

Sorry but Im inclined to agree with other posts.Your child is no longer a toddler.He is able to make his own choices and if you have taught him right from wrong should be able to behave well and not follow anothers bad behaviour.If he isnt doing this then try to work out why.When we care for children we teach them to make choices.We lead by example showing good ways to behave,problem solving.He cannot be kept away from potential problems but needs to learn how to deal with them