The boy that influences the other kid to be naughty and mean :(

[FroggyLoggy]

More a WWYD ... please help :)

So, in reception, DS1 was under the influence of a boy, let's call him Ethan. Ethan and DS1 were constantly in trouble together and DS1 was acting way out of character, being mean to other kids, aggressive etc... (he was never ever like this at nursery and is a lovely lovely boy at home). We knew it was the influence of Ethan, but couldn't keep DS1 away from him. Countless emails and conversations with school, copious amounts of worry, and we came extremely close to removing DS1 from the school simply to get him away from Ethan.

Year 1, fantastic teacher separated them at start of year and DS1 made a HUGE effort to stay away from 'Ethan'. For basically all of year 1, DS1 was his old self again, stayed away from Ethan (who found other boys to influence and get in trouble with) and he had a great, happy, well behaved year 1.

Now year 2, message wasn't relayed to class teacher about the history between DS1 and Ethan, and we just found out DS1 had been placed next to Ethan in most lessons. Friendship has re-kindled and now DS1 is back to being under his influence and already he's started being mean to another kid (which he would NEVER ever think to do if Ethan want there). School have now separated them during classes at my request, but I fear it's too late as they r now friends again.

Please help me! How can I encourage DS1 to stop playing with Ethan. I've tried everything. I fear it will be like the nightmare reception year all over again :( Poor Ethan is only 6, but I really can't stand him and wish he'd moe away/leave the school. I know it's not his fault, it's his home life, but his influence on DS1 is destroying me. I want my old DS1 back again

With chasing scenarios I advise mine to sit down, ideally near a teacher/ lunchtime assistant. It stops the chase being fun. It makes it clearer that they are not willingly participating. If your ds had done that Ethan would be told off for running up to your ds who was sitting ignoring him and for putting paint on him.

One of my ds's best friends is Ethan, probably for similar reasons to yours. Ds is never in trouble due to Ethan because he knows to walk away. He knows to say no and that we would hold him responsible. If he doesn't want to play Ethan's game he tells him why and plays with someone else.

OP, we've been where you are with DS. We chose his school because it became evident to us in daycare that he was easily led and in the circumstances it seemed to us that he was either going to be bullied or could be easily led to be a bully. We wanted a school that wouldn't tolerate it either way.

Sure enough in kindergarten he found his "Ethan", and together they started bullying a little girl. Thankfully, it was caught early and dealt with swiftly by the school to the girls parents satisfaction. DS continued to be led and influenced by Ethan, although that was the only time that the behaviour involved any kind of bullying. We worked with the school and with DS about making better choices, about consequences, about making his own decisions etc. it was a really difficult time but the perseverance paid off.

In the end, he made his own decision about his behaviour, made better choices and distances himself from his "Ethan" because he didn't like getting in trouble at school (it helped that the school just didn't tolerate any crap) and he was missing out on a lot at home because of his bad behaviour at school and his association with this kid.

Despite all of this he was a really good kid, really shy, his teachers and everyone who came into contact with him always had really positive things to say about him. He was always a beautiful boy at home. It never entered our minds that that excused or minimised or deflected the behaviour he was exhibiting when he was with "Ethan". It was clear to us that he was reacting to something that Ethan was doing but that was on DS and something he needed to learn to control.

He is 11 now and in hindsight it was a really good lesson for him to learn, he learned it the hard way, but he's not been in any trouble at all since kindergarten, and knows when to walk away when kids are playing up.

I know it's hard but your DS feeling bad isn't enough. DS felt bad about doing the wrong thing but it wasn't enough to stop him in the moment. It took him consistently getting into trouble and missing out on things to make him stop and think before acting. Focus only on his behaviour, don't even mention Ethan - we simply would say to DS, this is going to happen if you do x again, or because you did x this is what is going to happen. If he ever said Ethan was doing it or Ethan told me to we would simply say - we don't care what Ethan did or said, we are interested in your behaviour and what you did is not acceptable because of x.

PurpleMoodyRazu
Really well said.

I'm glad it's all sorted for you.

@FroggyLoggy

Two things that haven't been particularly rehashed lots that struck me in addition to your DS having to take full responsibility for his meanness and other choices.

You have said that you have low confidence, sounds like both you and DS need to focus on gaining confidence research that and put it into action.

Your DS has poor impulse control in as much as in the moment it follows his first impulse into following the lead of others. Research how to work on that and put it into action.

Perhaps he can start doing written apologies when appropriate or there is a consequence such as missing football time? You need to get the balance right that misbehaving doesn't go underground by DS learning to be devious and/or sly.

Well done purple. We’ve seen parents with tricky kids work really hard with them when primary age and now our kids getting older you can see the results.

Contrast with the friend whose son is never in the wrong - the reason for the tellings off and detentions are the fault of harry/teacher doesn’t like him etc not that her dd is a right pain. Her kids are not nice teens and people eye roll about them.

Ds1 was/easly led, all his teachers said this from reception. We had a "ethan" where he used to get into trouble with, not billing but other stuff during the first couple if years.

Whilst I knew his behaviour changed when with this child I never excused him and made him take responsibility for his own actions, even at 5.
He is choosing to follow them.

When ds1 was 11 he ran into other children at high school and after a few meeting ups the school for bad behaviour he has chosen to stay away from the kids who are all ways getting into trouble.

It's a constant battle to drum into him that he shouldn't follow other people.

Ds2 is completely different and won't ever bend to do something just because others are, so I do believe it can personality based not just confidence.

Build your sons confidence, and help him take responsabilitybfor his actions.

PurpleMoodyRazu Sounds like you dealt with that really well.

It’s interesting that in the ‘climbing the wall’ example you seem to be blaming Ethan as the instigator. If my DS had done that, I would consider that Ethan had suggested the action, but I would have placed the blame for my DSs actions solely on my DS.

Your DS chose to climb that wall. Then may have suggested it, but your DS CHOSE to ignore you and climb the wall. Surely you can see that? What consequences did you put in place as a result? Until the consequences of following Ethan are more unpleasant than the thrill of doing what Ethan suggests, you’re not going to solve this.

Good luck OP, it’s really tough sometimes being a parent, and I genuinely do sympathise. But please stop blaming Ethan for your child’s actions. Make sure he knows he is able to say no to Ethan, and put consequences in place when he chooses to join in.

OP I have just read your wall climbing post, honestly, that was not Ethans fault, It was your son's, He chose to ignore you and listen to Ethan.
Moving him, what happens if there is an Ethan at that school too?

He is a young child, it's hard dealing with this behaviour but you cant go round keep blaming these other kids, you need to teach your son to be responsible for his choices. The Ethans of this world dont hold guns to peoples heads and make them do stuff, people choose to follow their every move because they find it fun. thrilling, daring, or just enyoy stepping out from the behaviour they usually follow.
You can teach him about responsible choices and the consequences of making bad ones. It isnt going to happen overnight, thats the joy of parenthood your in it for the long haul and its hard work.
I just cant believe you still seem to be trying to find an easy option or excuse here, a lot of posters are telling you something similar.

This may seem harsh op but man up and face it head on, it will pay off in the long term, like I said in my previous posts, my 11yr DS is much better with this now as he was like your son, but I'm still working at it as he is still maturing and still finds making wise decisions hard.

OP, you said upthread that you hope that none of us have to deal with an Ethan.

I'm going to be as bold to say that there's probably an Ethan in most classes and so most of us probably have encountered one.
It's very obvious in terms of classroom management where the teacher won't sit Tom and Sally together because they wind each other up, or children have been moved to a new class because the old class has fallen into the habit of always treating them the same way, regardless of their actual behaviour.
The key thing that makes a difference is the response of the "other" child to yours. My DD, for example, has encountered several manipulative girls who've gone round roping in a "gang" to be mean to others and exclude others from their play. However DD, has a horror of being "naughty" and has always simply refused to get involved with this. In fact she's spent her whole school life (she's now Y8) being sat next the the children who can't be sat next to anyone else because they tend to pull less strongwilled children into their bad behaviour.

DS also resists the influencers for the simple reason that he hates being told what to do!! (though he is quite happy to come up with his own naughtiness, not an angelic child!)

On the other hand, OP has a child that has a different type of personality that likes to follow what others do and isn't sufficiently grounded in good behaviours or strong willed enough to resist. That's what she needs to work on.

In your example of climbing on the wall, did you pull your child straight off the wall and tell him off?
when you got home did you role play correct behaviour "he tells Ethan he can't climb on the wall because it's dangerous/his mum's told him not to" or even "he tells Ethan he doesn't feel like climbing on the wall today", if he wants to save face.

You've got very upset on this thread, because people have called your child a bully. But by your own admission his behaviour is aggressive and he is mean to others.

Me: Froggyson, get off that wall now please.

Froggyson gets off wall and apologises.

What was his punishment afterwards?

Froggy I read a book years ago, it included a chart where nothing was ever taken away from a child, however all privileges were earned. If you didn’t earn, you didn’t get kind of thing. Going swimming, watching TV, playing X box etc are all privileges.

For example if you did your homework, you got to play X box. If you didn’t, you didn’t play X box. So X box was never taken away as such, you earned your privilege. Child is aware of this as it’s stuck to the wall.

Do you think something similar might work for your son? For example teacher tells you son has not got into any trouble, he gets whatever privilege. If he has got into trouble he doesn’t get it.

I agree there's at least one Ethan in every class, so all of our kids have the option to follow them or not.

I believe every kid is basically a good kid at heart, even Ethan, they just need guidance from their parents in certain behaviours. Some chilldren more than others and I think conscequences play a role in this. You can't assume Ethan is influenced by his home life either. Do his parents have a clue what's going on at school? Have you spoken to Ethan's parents?
Definitely have clearly explained consequences that you stick to religiously if rules are broken. Bullying should have zero tolerance- no excuses! I bet the parents of the children your son's been mean to don't make excuses for him because he's basically a good kid.

Froggyson don’t you DARE get on that wall. We are going. NOW. Come on.

Froggyson. Get OFF THAT WALL. NOW.

Then get him by the wrist. Down to his level. Don’t you DARE disobey me EVER AGAIN. When I tell you not to do something you DONT go and do it. Who do you think you are to DISOBEY ME? We are going straight home and you will go straight to your room. Now. WALK. and not a word out of you.

And if he tried to talk to me on the way home. BE QUIET. I do not want to listen to you. How DARE YOU have disobeyed me.

That’s how i would have dealt with it.

OP, the wall incident you described is one thing, but you started this thread mainly because you were worried about your DS saying mean things to other children. It’s now 340 posts in and still nobody has any idea what the “mean” comments have been!

Can I ask (and I don’t mean this as an attack), are you feeling too defensive to tell people what he has actually said?

How did you find out he’s been mean to other DC? Did you witness it with your own eyes? Did other parents tell you? Did the teacher call you aside? What has actually happened and how often?

I think if you name the behaviour for what it is, it might diffuse the “pile on” you feel you’re experiencing on here and you’ll get more useful advice if people can comment on specifics rather than (probably) imagining it to be worse than it is.

To be honest, and I know you think Mumsnet is bullying you, but YOU and your son have to take responsibility here.

You have to start from the position that your sons behaviour is unacceptable, and YES he is being a bully.

Start from that position and deal with it firmly and swiftly. Ignore the ' Ethan' factor as that is simply an excuse you are using to excuse your sons behaviour. The reality is that he is in total control of his own behaviour and decisions.

You say how lovely and amazing your son is , and that he is your world . We all think that of our children, this is also not a factor in anything and doesn't equate to correct parenting all of the time, even though it is fantastic feeling to have as a parent.

For the sake of your son and , as importantly, for the sake of the children he is upsetting, please stop being defensive and blaming ' Ethan' for your sons actions. His behaviour is his to own.

Thesmallthings .. you say:
“Ds2 is completely different and won't ever bend to do something just because others are, so I do believe it can personality based not just confidence. “
However confidence is a personality trait that is usually innate and based on genetics, bar for kids who have suffered serious trauma or neglect, where confidence is affected of course. But even in the event of trauma or neglect the genetical personality traits will prevail infbe way kids react to their experiences. Lots of studies on this

I think you really need to try and step away from this 'but for Ethan' feeling about the situation. It's not a case of 'your son = good, Ethan = bad' - these things are never that simple.

You can't divide children into 'lovely' or 'bully.' They're all capable of a wide range of behaviour, and all of that behaviour has to be dealt with on its own merits. You can't excuse mean behaviour on the basis that the child is nice 90% of the time, and equally, the 10% of mean behaviour doesn't make your child 'bad.'

I'm not saying Ethan isn't a factor at all, but it might be better to try and think of the pair of them as a bad combination, rather than one being to blame and the other being a victim. Because it doesn't really matter who the instigator is - the end result of the mean behaviour is that another child is hurt and upset. That child, and their parents, aren't going to make the distinction between 'nice Froggyson who's made a mistake' and 'bad Ethan whose fault it is.'

I'd be inclined to come down like a tonne of bricks on the behaviour. You've tried a gentler approach and it hasn't worked. And I'd also be inclined to refuse to discuss Ethan at all. 'I'm not interested in Ethan. he's not my responsibility. I'm dealing with you.' At the moment, he's got you on side when he blames Ethan. You need to make sure that he's under no illusions that you will accept Ethan as an excuse for everything he does.

Wonderful advice from kingfupanda, I couldn't agree more.

@FroggyLoggy I’m not sure if you’ve left the thread but I have some practical advice. I’m a counsellor in a primary school.

Don’t talk about Ethan / blame him. It’s vital that your son takes responsibility. It will harm him if he doesn’t.

If your son is emotionally mature enough (he’s still very young so maybe not). Ask him what it’s like for him being friends with Ethan. Things like when you were mean to that child what were you thinking / feeling? Were there any changes in your body / where? Once he can identify what happens and how he feels he can change it before it escalates. He’s so young though and might not be capable of answering those questions yet.

Play with him. Stay in the metaphor, you might find that he acts out how he’s feeling. Sand is really good, so is clay and paint.

Speak to him about empathy and how the other child might have felt and how he would feel if it was him.

I wouldn’t not punish him (personally speaking now) because he already feels ‘bad enough’. I’d be letting him know in no uncertain terms how very disappointed I am and how I didn’t think he would do these kinds of things and there’d be a consequence and we’d move on quickly.

I’m having to do a lot of work with my 11 year old son. He seems to have turned a corner now thank god! He would get so upset about things and always what people thought of him. It would manifest itself in either tears or anger. Him figuring out the feelings in his body have really helped him turn it all around. I just want people to see the lovely boy that he is and not the whiney/ angry one he portrays sometimes.

Good luck, I’m sorry you’ve had a bashing. That’s the nature of the aibu beast I think haha. Pm me if you need anything 💐

where another child has had such a strong influence over their DC then? It's a lonely horrible place to be in. You know what is also lonely and horrible place, op? Watching your child's self confidence/self esteem dive to no existent levels because they are being bullied.

My daughter (and her friend) only ever had "mean things" said to her, but by god it has had a devastating effect on her. She is autistic, and has generalized anxiety and due to only a term's worth of bullying behaviour, her sensory and general asd traits have resurfaced/regressed and she is a mess. I am talking not sleeping, eating, grooming herself. She is self harming again. Thankfully self harm for her is slapping herself, and scratching at her skin til it bleeds. Thankfully she isn't using sharp objects on herself. It took years to get a handle on her behaviors, to get her to a place that she was "functioning" now, we are back at least a yr!

At one point, she was at risk of losing her only friend (they met this year - yr 4 - in class and have been super close) to another school because of the same child. I watched her cry her heart out because of this. Be that parent who feels so helpless because you cannot stop that. I can't stop her friend's family moving her. Be that parent that has to leave the room before the tears come because you don't want her to see you upset, because you have to be strong for her. You have to be her harbour. You can't drown. She can't see that!

She is 10, this is her first real friend and she was going to leave the school. She isn't now, because the school are on top of the bullying child, but her anxiety won't let her forget about it. To her, it is now and always will be a real fear of hers. Just another rung to add to the catastrophic scale.

Bullying has an impact. You be lonely all you like, but don't dare to think you are in the worse place possible with your son, because you are not. The victims, and their families are.

I say it again.
One term. 10 weeks. One child. Mean things.
That is all it takes.

Teddy that’s so sad I am so sorry. God it’s depressing how children dole out cruelty. I am sure their parents think they are marvellous

Sorry too many eggs not teddy x

toomanyeggs similar experience for my son too, he has Autism. Bullied his entire school life, from name calling, excluded, kids not letting him sit next them etc, to violence too etc. Caused him to self harm, suicidal thoughts etc.

He has had years of counselling due to the trauma. He now attends a school with zero tolerance for bullying. He still has severe anxiety and difficulty trusting anyone.

Hope your DD is managing ❤️