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111 reported me to Social Services! Absolutely Fuming!!! (Sorry- LONG)

415 replies

discopisco · 22/11/2018 15:00

Posting here for traffic.

Background:

Me and DH are ftp to a much wanted and planned 11 week old baby. Baby is beautiful and the cutest thing we’ve ever seen but he’s a notoriously bad sleeper (he’s a cat napping meerkat at best). That coupled with the fact that baby has had a consistent cold/viral infection since 9 days old has meant that we’re both constantly exhausted and feel like we’ve been hit by a bus.

Context:

Baby has so far had a number of visits to see the GP for feeding/digestive issues and two visits to A&E- the first at 9 days of age because he wasn’t feeding well (diagnosed with a cold and prescribed saline drops) and the second time at 9 weeks old for the same issue plus him appearing drowsy/sleepy (totally out of character for the poor guy). The second visit to A&E came about when I rang NHS 111. The lady asked me a million questions and then said she was calling an ambulance just to be on the safe side. I cried thinking I’d missed major signs related to baby being poorly but she was lovely and reassuring and said baby seemed fine and the ambulance people would simply check him to see if further action was needed. As it happens, the paramedics arrived within minutes and carried out their assessments. They said they weren’t worried in the least and asked me why I’d requested an ambulance. I told Them I hadn’t- the lady at 111 had. At this, they looked at each other and rolled their eyes and one of them said something along the lines of ‘bloody idiots need their heads knocking together’. They told me that since they had been called they would have to take baby to A&E to get him checked over by medical staff. When we got to hospital and they handed us over to the triage nurse, she asked why they’d been sent out to see a child with symptoms of the cold. One of the paramedic said ‘111’ and the nurse mouthed ‘bloody t@ats’. After a couple of hours, baby was seen by the Paediatrician, diagnosed again as having a cold, prescribed saline drops again and we were sent home.

Current situation:

Baby was seriously congested, didn’t want to feed as much and wasn’t sleeping much at all- he’d sleep for a few minutes and would then wake up spluttering. I’d pick him up, pat his back and put him down again but the same thing would happen. Thinking 111 was an out of hours GP service and would advise me, I called them and asked them what I could do to help the baby breathe a bit better. After getting his details wrong a couple of times, I was passed onto someone else who also struggled to locate baby’s details on the 111 computer system. This second person was curt and very, very cold. She asked me a number of questions in a very robotic manner and simply wanted a yes/no answer. She asked me if baby was grunting when he breathed. I told her I didn’t think so but I didn’t know what a grunting breath sounded like. So I mimicked the baby and said ‘is that what you mean? Is that grunting?’ She said she wasn’t in a position to say as she wasn’t there with us. She asked me again if baby was grunting so I asked her to give me an example of a grunt- she said she couldn’t as different people had different versions of what a grunt was! In the end, I said baby was not grunting. At the end of the assessment, she said the baby didn’t sound like he was in danger but we should take him to A&E. I thanked her and said if he wasn’t in any danger then I’d keep an eye on him for the next couple of hours and if he got worse, I’d take him to hospital as my husband (the only driver) was ill himself and had taken medication that made him drowsy (I’d have called a cab). At this, she became incredulous and confrontational and said ‘are you putting your welfare ahead of your child’s? You need to get him to A&E now!’ Because she was so aloof throughout the call, the tone she used to speak to me made me see red so I repeated what I had said firmly that I’d monitor the baby myself and if things got any worse, I’d take him to the hospital. I explained we’d been in previously and been told the baby had had a cold and needed to rest it out. I said I didn’t think waiting in A&E past midnight on a cold night would do him any good. She completely ignored what I had said and kept talking over me repeating ‘so you’re not taking him to A&E?!’ When I said ‘not for the moment, no’. She said ‘right, I’m reporting you to social services- your child should be your first priority!’ When I asked to speak to her manager, she told me there wasn’t one but she’d get the duty Gp to call us as a matter of urgency.

We did end up going into A&E (at 1:30am) as baby’s temperature was slightly on the low side. The triage nurse told us baby looked okay. She also said since it was a busy night, we should be prepared for a long wait. While waiting, we got a call from the duty Dr at 111. She said from what we’d told her that the baby had a cold and that he needed a rest. She said it was good we’d gone into A&E just to be on the safe side. She apologised when I explained what her colleague had said about making a referral to Social Services. She said she’d put a note on the system for everything to be put on hold and that she’d get someone to give me a call in the morning to talk through that horrendous 111 call. We ended up waiting in a corridor from 1:30-8:30am (no beds cubicles/beds available as there were children there with much serious ailments) and when were seen by the Paediatrician, we were told they’d put us at the bottom of the list as baby had not been deemed ill/serious enough! We were given some more saline drops and sent on our way.

We got home about lunchtime and as I was rocking the baby to sleep. DH got a call from an anonymous number- our local social services! The social worker said we’d been referred overnight as a matter of urgency did he agree that our son was in danger of being neglected? DH told her about the call and how he felt it was a malicious referral and that he was not willing to discuss matters any further as we’d be making a formal complaint against the 111 member of staff for escalating things without reason. The SW told him that since a referral was made, they’d have to act one way or another- either with his consent or without!

To cut an even longer story short- no one from 111 direct called us again to query what had happened. The Social Worker has since passed on our details to the local children’s centre and we’ve had them make contact re: baby’s welfare. We’ve asked for support re: his sleep which although needed is more to get them off our backs. I’m so so so upset and angry that SS were used as a threat/ammunition by the 111 worker in an attempt to force us to comply to her dodgy assessment. I’m a regular user of the children’s centre and am now paranoid and self-conscious that the staff there will think I’m a bad mum because SS are involved with our family and that theyll pick on the littlest thing to report me again?! It’s put me off going to anymore sessions with the baby.

Both me and DH are professionals who are incredibly responsive parents. We are not a SS family. We need help getting the baby to sleep but can do that through a sleep consultant privately. We do not need a SW keeping an eye on us to do that.

So, my question is what should I do next? I’ve contacted 111 again and asked them to get someone senior to call me back re: a complaint. I’m thinking of contacting my local MP about this too. I can’t stand the Daily Fail but I hope one of their journalists is reading this and reports it. I’m so so upset. The relentlessness of motherhood- the constant feedings, changing, sleeplessness, lack of social support, etc. was already a massive struggle but I was managing to stay on the right side of good mental health. This referral is overwhelming me and I fear it’s going to lead to PND, especially since I’m reluctant to take the baby to sessions at the children’s centre. He’s been poorly as it is and we’ve been cooped up at home but I don’t know how I’ll be able to entertain him/socialise once he’s better because I can’t return to the children’s centre. I can’t do it- I feel so ashamed.

Apologies for the rant/she said- I said post but I just needed to get this off my chest. Would welcome other perspectives/advice/guidance.

OP posts:
Bleurgh0 · 22/11/2018 16:20

The advice when mine was little was to raise the head of the cot ever so slightly to help them breath. Do they still do this?

This is still the advice.

What about running a hot shower and sitting in the bathroom with little one to help him breath?

This is no longer the advice in case they get a steam burn but it's worked for us several times. I've had HVs tell me they can't officially advise this but unofficially they do.

DeloresJaneUmbridge · 22/11/2018 16:21

Oh it sounds like you’ve had a totally shit time OP with your poor baby.

Please please don’t worry about social services, they are snowed under and absolutely not going to be interested in interfering with a family simply trying to get advice about their baby’s cold.

Just key in your GP number to your phone and you can always speak to someone who isn’t 111 out of hours if needed.

Don’t worry about Children’s Centre staff as they are ,overly and exist only to try and help you if you require it.

As far as 111 goes the call handler follows a specific questioning programme and will suggest whatever the outcome tells them to do. If you then say “no I am not following that advice” and it’s about a young baby they have no option but to refer it on. Now you know and I know (from what you’ve posted here) that you are not neglectful parents. Unfortunately the call handler doesn’t know that and has to follow the guidelines she is given.

111 can be great but it does have its drawbacks.

NicoAndTheNiners · 22/11/2018 16:21

I wouldn't hold your breath about getting recording of the calls.

I made a complaint about 111 and they said they had no record I'd ever called them even though they called me back twice! So said they couldn't do anything. It was a near miss that by dd didn't die to their incompetence. A doctor was supposed to ring me back and never did.

JessieMcJessie · 22/11/2018 16:21

www.haringeyccg.nhs.uk/Services/barndoc.htm

In case anyone is interested- where I live make it very clear that out of hours GP only accessible via 111. I have used the system very successfully with a small baby and never been referred to A&E.

User24689 · 22/11/2018 16:21

I'm sorry for your experience OP and I totally understand the anxiety as a first time parent. Babies with colds can appear very poorly and they do struggle to feed and sleep. It isn't an emergency situation, but I can see how you ended up panicking.

With your sleep, I really wouldn't label your child's as a 'notoriously' bad sleeper at 11 weeks. My child has had poor sleep 'phases' that have lasted that long!! Babies wake in the night, it is completely developmentally normal and if he has been ill it will be worse. My 13 month old is just starting to sleep longer stretches now - it's hard but there is a huge range of normal. Just keep responding to his needs, don't get sucked into sleep consultants especially 11 weeks in. I recommend a FB page called the beyond sleep training project for support. Gave me such better perspective on normal infant sleep.

Rolypolybabies · 22/11/2018 16:22

The call handler seems odd, but equally this could be a red flag. However, How many newspaper articles can you think of where 111, a and e and ss haven't properly followed up on a family. I have had SS involvement from a 111 call because I dropped my baby. It was resolved very quickly and I am glad they did look into it. Complain by all means, but also accept they involvement and deal with it appropriately.

NicoAndTheNiners · 22/11/2018 16:22

You can also repeatedly boil a kettle in the bedroom to get the room steamy rather than having to be in the bathroom with the shower running. My parents did that for me when I had croup and it helped a lot.

Tara336 · 22/11/2018 16:23

@blackcat86 my DP ended up intensive care for a week with Epiglotitis after I called 111 and they diagnosed a throat infection

redexpat · 22/11/2018 16:23

It is not the call handler's job to assess whether you need SS. It's her job to refer to them if she encounters anything that could be a sign of neglect or abuse and not seeking and/or following medical advice can be. It's up to ss to decide whether you need them or not.

JessieMcJessie · 22/11/2018 16:23

Croup is totally different to a cold though.

zeeboo · 22/11/2018 16:24

@discopisco you seem to be a tad hung up on what you are reading as opposed to what you are seeing or what your instincts tell you.
The whole "baby under 12 weeks seek medical attention" and "I've read Mums and babies need to socialise and get out" (I'm paraphrasing)
Your baby had a cold, you knew they had a cold. So when they developed further symptoms of a cold, why phone 111? You could, if you really thought it needed medical attention; phoned the GP the next day. As it is, as long as they are having wet nappies then they are eating enough and hydrated and not in any danger. Very sick babies are fairly able to spot, sunken fontanele,no wet nappies, not waking to be fed, staring etc
You knew well enough that you weren't going to take the advice of the last 111 operator. Instinct told you that your baby didn't need it. So why phone in the first place?? If you need advice on baby colds and symptoms then Mumsnet or google and countless other forums are where you need to go.
I think you do need to see someone, most likely a health visitor who will teach you to calm down, step away from books and warning labels and help you lose some of your anxiety. Otherwise, your parenting journey is going to be one long round of this.
You need to ditch the offence at "not being an SS family" as the family that recently drove themselves and their adopted children off a cliff in the USA were a professional couple. The McCanns left their children unattended and went off to eat Tapas and they were a professional couple. Abuse, neglect and just plain dodgy parenting does NOT come only from council houses ffs. This is another example of your fixed mindset.

Sugarhunnyicedtea · 22/11/2018 16:24

We can also only access out of hours through 111. I have used them on several occasions and only once told to go to a&e. We usually get given an ooh appointment or told to see a gp the next day.

Branleuse · 22/11/2018 16:25

ive also been freaked out and ended up going to a&e after speaking to 111. I think thats just what they do, and then a&e are all pissed off with you when you get there.
I dont even bother with them now, but i will go to the walk in centre instead.
Tbh, it always sounds like the people at 111 are just googling the info anyway

Rachelover40 · 22/11/2018 16:25

The op did go to A&E, she has explained it many times, also what she meant by 'SS family'.

There are plenty of nasal decongestants you can buy over the counter for a baby. Just google, "Nasal decongestant for baby under three months", op. A good idea to have one put by even if the cold has gone, he'll get another cold.

Miyajima98 · 22/11/2018 16:26

OP you need to find out if there is an ombudsman to complain to re 111. Also write to them using their formal complaints procedure to get a copy of the transcripts which they are legally required to give you.

Secondly, in future sign up to GP at Hand. This is the NHS smartphone app which gives you immediate access to an NHS GP ( within the next few minutes either on the phone, using FaceTime or in person if required) - much easier than a normal GP surgery where you have to wait until the next morning to get an appointment. This way you won't need 111, and you will be getting a qualified GP who is able to advise you properly.

Thirdly - do NOT let this episode affect your mental health. You can be in control of that. It was a terrible thing that should not have been handled so badly and you will fight it, but don't let it take over your whole life. You have lived to tell the tale, baby is fine, you are good parents - keep that as your central thought.

xx

Diddlysquats · 22/11/2018 16:26

OP, I've sent you a pm and hope it helps a little.
You didn't happen to mention the reaction of the paramedics and hospital staff from the previous incident to the call handler? Because that might have riled them.

flapjackfairy · 22/11/2018 16:27

When a referral is made to soc services they have to investigate it even if it is obvious that the outcome will be no further action required.
.What else would you have them do ?
And they take the failure to follow medical advice seriously because of high profile cases resulting in tragedies when children stayed under the radar as it were .
They may seem heavy handed but they are just doing their job.

AG1x · 22/11/2018 16:30

@discopisco I did. It was in reference to the first two attendences...

LadyGrinch · 22/11/2018 16:33

Note to self. Don't call 111 about sick DC. Hmm

MarvinMarvinson · 22/11/2018 16:36

I work for 111 but probably not in the area op is. First off, OP didn't do anything wrong calling that service. That's exactly what they are supposed to be there for.

Where I work, a parent not taking a child to a&e is seen as a safeguarding issue - but only for accidents. So if you ring and your child has had an accident and you have been advised to go to a&e a nurse rings to check you went. If you didn't attend a nurse would ring and chat with you about why it's so important. It's rare for it to get to the safeguarding referral stage. A call handler would never be allowed to get involved in that - they seek permission to ring a&e but that's it.

The call handler op spoke to sounded incredibly rude and heavy handed. I would definitely make a complaint. They allowed the call to escalate into a conflict very very quickly and absolutely unnecessarily. If it was a nurse rather than a call handler, why didn't they ask op to put baby near the phone so they could hear the breathing? Where I work you call a nurse over and they plug in and do that. It's completely understandable that a lay person wouldn't know what grunting is - newborns with colds make all kinds of snuffly noises.

I also just want to reassure people who are saying they wouldn't call 111. It's run differently in different parts of the country. It's not perfect and I agree a lot with what a pp has said about there not being enough gp appointments - 111 is no replacement for a baby being seen in person by a health professional. Unfortunately it ends up being used as a replacement as people struggle to get to a gp. Certainly where I work, referring people to a&e and 999 isn't done that often - and not as a matter of course.

AvoidingDM · 22/11/2018 16:36

Op i wouldn't trust 111 with a goldfish.

36 weeks pregnant they asked if I had a swollen abdomen - well yes!!!
I had a high temperature they eventually ended the call with 'if you start convulsions call us back

I ended up in hospital a few days later fighting for my life. They should have advised see emergency GP or A&E.

JasperRising · 22/11/2018 16:38

I'm another one who has to access OOH GP via 111. I think those of us who are in an area that runs that method are less likely to assume that we will end up in a&e. Of calls in the last couple of years, I have had one call back from a Dr, two appointments at the OOH medical centre and one recommendation to go to a&e. So please don't be put off phoning if that is your route to OOH care!

OP Flowers. Parenting in the early months with a non sleeper is hard work. We also had a DC with permanent cold and I made several trips to the GP which with hindsight I probably didn't need to make but at the time I worried. I have found that pharmacists can help but not with everything - for instance they can't do eye drops for under 2s because they have to be prescribed at that age - but they can help with other things or tell you if it needs a Dr.

Please do keep going to the children's centre - I can't imagine they are allowed to share details of the referral with all their staff. Or, if that is too daunting, maybe you can find some private groups that interest you?

On a side note, we did work with a private sleep consultant (who was much better than the lady the HV sent out to us when we asked for help) but not until DC was nearer to 1 - she was a miracle worker though! I suspect if it if the blocked nose waking him then a sleep consultant won't do much until that is cleared but it is something to keep in mind if you can afford it.

Birdsfoottrefoil · 22/11/2018 16:40

Haven’t rtft but baby who has been to a&e three times in its short life and a concerned 111 operative - yes social services absolutely need to investigate. You mustn’t take it personally (hard not to I know) but this action could save some babies’ lives. Most social workers actually do have common sense and too heavy a work load to bother with cases that turn out to be fine on checking.

I would put your complaint about the 111 operative to them in writing (there should be a complaints email address) - keep to the relevantfacts and keep it short.

You may also find it helpful to speak to your health visitor about tips for caring for a poorly young baby. She will probably have been informed of your a&e visits as a matter of course so may get in touch anyway.

user1471444904 · 22/11/2018 16:43

Unfortunately I too had to call 111 recently when my mum passed away. I was in shock and the only thing I could remember was that as there is no out of hours Gp service in her area I had to phone 111.
So I made the call and explained the situation, that my mum had passed and I needed advice/help with what I needed to do next. The call taker was sympathetic and said that I would get a call back within an hour from a dr and they would come out to us.
THREE hours later i had heard nothing so called them again, I gave my details and this call taker rather brusquely said “I can see you called earlier about your mother, you must understand we are very busy. Wait for the Health Professional to call you back”. Then as an afterthought she added “Are her symptoms worse?”
“No” I replied “She’s still dead.........”
I know they are scripted to ascertain the situation but come on!

reallyanotherone · 22/11/2018 16:45

The majority of families with ss involvement probably think they don’t need it.

The myth that all social workers are interfering busybodies desperate to take your children away is still alive and well in many areas.

Personally, a mum with a 9wk old baby repeatedly calling 111 and with multiple a&e attendances does need some help, and social services can access it for you. Regardless of what the attendences are for.

They aren’t just there to label you bad parents, they can refer you for parenting courses, first aid courses, baby groups that will help you learn about your baby and give you confidence to self manage or recognise genuine illness.

You need help. Call ss and talk to them. They will refer you on and close their case.

I’d allso be seeing your GP as a 9 wk old with colds and viral infections since birth does sound troubling. Get underlying conditions ruled out.

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