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111 reported me to Social Services! Absolutely Fuming!!! (Sorry- LONG)

415 replies

discopisco · 22/11/2018 15:00

Posting here for traffic.

Background:

Me and DH are ftp to a much wanted and planned 11 week old baby. Baby is beautiful and the cutest thing we’ve ever seen but he’s a notoriously bad sleeper (he’s a cat napping meerkat at best). That coupled with the fact that baby has had a consistent cold/viral infection since 9 days old has meant that we’re both constantly exhausted and feel like we’ve been hit by a bus.

Context:

Baby has so far had a number of visits to see the GP for feeding/digestive issues and two visits to A&E- the first at 9 days of age because he wasn’t feeding well (diagnosed with a cold and prescribed saline drops) and the second time at 9 weeks old for the same issue plus him appearing drowsy/sleepy (totally out of character for the poor guy). The second visit to A&E came about when I rang NHS 111. The lady asked me a million questions and then said she was calling an ambulance just to be on the safe side. I cried thinking I’d missed major signs related to baby being poorly but she was lovely and reassuring and said baby seemed fine and the ambulance people would simply check him to see if further action was needed. As it happens, the paramedics arrived within minutes and carried out their assessments. They said they weren’t worried in the least and asked me why I’d requested an ambulance. I told Them I hadn’t- the lady at 111 had. At this, they looked at each other and rolled their eyes and one of them said something along the lines of ‘bloody idiots need their heads knocking together’. They told me that since they had been called they would have to take baby to A&E to get him checked over by medical staff. When we got to hospital and they handed us over to the triage nurse, she asked why they’d been sent out to see a child with symptoms of the cold. One of the paramedic said ‘111’ and the nurse mouthed ‘bloody t@ats’. After a couple of hours, baby was seen by the Paediatrician, diagnosed again as having a cold, prescribed saline drops again and we were sent home.

Current situation:

Baby was seriously congested, didn’t want to feed as much and wasn’t sleeping much at all- he’d sleep for a few minutes and would then wake up spluttering. I’d pick him up, pat his back and put him down again but the same thing would happen. Thinking 111 was an out of hours GP service and would advise me, I called them and asked them what I could do to help the baby breathe a bit better. After getting his details wrong a couple of times, I was passed onto someone else who also struggled to locate baby’s details on the 111 computer system. This second person was curt and very, very cold. She asked me a number of questions in a very robotic manner and simply wanted a yes/no answer. She asked me if baby was grunting when he breathed. I told her I didn’t think so but I didn’t know what a grunting breath sounded like. So I mimicked the baby and said ‘is that what you mean? Is that grunting?’ She said she wasn’t in a position to say as she wasn’t there with us. She asked me again if baby was grunting so I asked her to give me an example of a grunt- she said she couldn’t as different people had different versions of what a grunt was! In the end, I said baby was not grunting. At the end of the assessment, she said the baby didn’t sound like he was in danger but we should take him to A&E. I thanked her and said if he wasn’t in any danger then I’d keep an eye on him for the next couple of hours and if he got worse, I’d take him to hospital as my husband (the only driver) was ill himself and had taken medication that made him drowsy (I’d have called a cab). At this, she became incredulous and confrontational and said ‘are you putting your welfare ahead of your child’s? You need to get him to A&E now!’ Because she was so aloof throughout the call, the tone she used to speak to me made me see red so I repeated what I had said firmly that I’d monitor the baby myself and if things got any worse, I’d take him to the hospital. I explained we’d been in previously and been told the baby had had a cold and needed to rest it out. I said I didn’t think waiting in A&E past midnight on a cold night would do him any good. She completely ignored what I had said and kept talking over me repeating ‘so you’re not taking him to A&E?!’ When I said ‘not for the moment, no’. She said ‘right, I’m reporting you to social services- your child should be your first priority!’ When I asked to speak to her manager, she told me there wasn’t one but she’d get the duty Gp to call us as a matter of urgency.

We did end up going into A&E (at 1:30am) as baby’s temperature was slightly on the low side. The triage nurse told us baby looked okay. She also said since it was a busy night, we should be prepared for a long wait. While waiting, we got a call from the duty Dr at 111. She said from what we’d told her that the baby had a cold and that he needed a rest. She said it was good we’d gone into A&E just to be on the safe side. She apologised when I explained what her colleague had said about making a referral to Social Services. She said she’d put a note on the system for everything to be put on hold and that she’d get someone to give me a call in the morning to talk through that horrendous 111 call. We ended up waiting in a corridor from 1:30-8:30am (no beds cubicles/beds available as there were children there with much serious ailments) and when were seen by the Paediatrician, we were told they’d put us at the bottom of the list as baby had not been deemed ill/serious enough! We were given some more saline drops and sent on our way.

We got home about lunchtime and as I was rocking the baby to sleep. DH got a call from an anonymous number- our local social services! The social worker said we’d been referred overnight as a matter of urgency did he agree that our son was in danger of being neglected? DH told her about the call and how he felt it was a malicious referral and that he was not willing to discuss matters any further as we’d be making a formal complaint against the 111 member of staff for escalating things without reason. The SW told him that since a referral was made, they’d have to act one way or another- either with his consent or without!

To cut an even longer story short- no one from 111 direct called us again to query what had happened. The Social Worker has since passed on our details to the local children’s centre and we’ve had them make contact re: baby’s welfare. We’ve asked for support re: his sleep which although needed is more to get them off our backs. I’m so so so upset and angry that SS were used as a threat/ammunition by the 111 worker in an attempt to force us to comply to her dodgy assessment. I’m a regular user of the children’s centre and am now paranoid and self-conscious that the staff there will think I’m a bad mum because SS are involved with our family and that theyll pick on the littlest thing to report me again?! It’s put me off going to anymore sessions with the baby.

Both me and DH are professionals who are incredibly responsive parents. We are not a SS family. We need help getting the baby to sleep but can do that through a sleep consultant privately. We do not need a SW keeping an eye on us to do that.

So, my question is what should I do next? I’ve contacted 111 again and asked them to get someone senior to call me back re: a complaint. I’m thinking of contacting my local MP about this too. I can’t stand the Daily Fail but I hope one of their journalists is reading this and reports it. I’m so so upset. The relentlessness of motherhood- the constant feedings, changing, sleeplessness, lack of social support, etc. was already a massive struggle but I was managing to stay on the right side of good mental health. This referral is overwhelming me and I fear it’s going to lead to PND, especially since I’m reluctant to take the baby to sessions at the children’s centre. He’s been poorly as it is and we’ve been cooped up at home but I don’t know how I’ll be able to entertain him/socialise once he’s better because I can’t return to the children’s centre. I can’t do it- I feel so ashamed.

Apologies for the rant/she said- I said post but I just needed to get this off my chest. Would welcome other perspectives/advice/guidance.

OP posts:
MarvinMarvinson · 22/11/2018 16:48

Oh God user, that's awful, I'm so sorry.

it's not hard to read a record that you've pulled up.

Unfortunately, people who are waiting for ooh GP's to certify someone passing away often do have long waits. There are never enough GPs for all the OOH calls they get. So then from a very cold and clinical point of view the OOH service will prioritise the patients who need medical attention. It's awful for the relatives though, I can't imagine how painful it must be to have to wait and wait like that. The very least you should be able to expect is some sensitivity. Our service would definitely have seen what you were calling about and rang the OOH service to chase them up for you.

WinterSpiceOnIce · 22/11/2018 16:50

Er, we should not be demonising either111 or ss!! This thread is batshit

As for not being a 'ss' family op, well yes, you are one now!!! Whatever that means.

Asking for all the 'grunting' detail is odd. You sounded argumentative at the least

Hope the baby is doing ok now

Pythonesque · 22/11/2018 16:51

111 is not really fit for purpose IMO, especially for young children. Unfortunately, in some areas, like ours, it also acts as the gateway for OOH services. So yes, if I need to see a GP overnight or on the weekend for something urgent, I have to go through 111 and their computerised algorithms and answer all the irrelevant questions, in order to get a chance of an OOH appointment.

I doubt the call handler actually knew what "grunting" in her algorithm referred to. That is the kind of algorithm that gets moved from one use (by people with paediatric training) to another, where people using it don't know that they don't know what it actually means. In this context, what is of interest is when a young child makes a short "grunting" noise as they breathe out - it is another marker of respiratory distress.

Diddlysquats · 22/11/2018 16:56

But the OP went to A&E on the advice of 111 in the first instance, and then given the reaction of the paramedics on that occasion, was loathe to do so again in the second instance. She was asking for advice. She took it once and was found to be exaggerating. Of course she didn't know which end of her was up the second time.
So you can't say that it's a mother worrying about a baby with a cold. The OP is a new mother, and no more than the rest of us, hasn't a bloody clue what's happening and is just concerned. She doesn't know whether it's just a cold or not.
They are arseholes for referring her.

AvoidingDM · 22/11/2018 16:56

User that is absoultely awfulFlowers
Honestly they need to engage brain not just the computer says ....

BabySharkAteMyHamster · 22/11/2018 16:58

If it makes you feel any better the eye clinic at my local hospital referred me to safeguarding because my son missed 2 appointments.

The.first because he was.ill, the.second was.cancelled.the.day I got.the appointment as we were on holiday (( no option to change, we can only cancel which is stupid ))

I honestly think it was malicious as.the.woman didnt like my response when she threatened (( I replied that's fine if you feel the need to.do that ))

My son is disabled so we already have a sw relating to that. She thought it was.hilarious and a waste.of everyones time but someone newer into the system already struggling with a.disabled child it could have had.a.real impact on their.mental health. I know 10 years ago it wouldnt have taken much.to push me.over the.edge.

ajw88 · 22/11/2018 16:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Diddlysquats · 22/11/2018 16:59

OP don't cry when SS do visit. Put your work hat on and see this as a sort of job interview. Or they'll be all over you like flies on a hot shite. 'Mother not coping'. Also, make sure your DH is there also. If he has to take a half day off work, so be it.

Charolais · 22/11/2018 16:59

With all that 'socializing' around other children, no wonder your baby has so many colds. I would keep him away from other children and stop calling this 111 number.

What an awful place the U.K has become. The government has too much power and the people there are too needy.

Steakandkidney · 22/11/2018 17:00

It doesn't sound as though social services have escalated things though?
When a safeguarding concern is raised they first do an initial assessment, i.e. first contact. From that, they decide whether to drop it/signpost to other services, or do a more in depth, core assessment. This is done in the case that actual or serious harm is thought to have occurred, or be likely to occur. There are three outcomes to this: no action, child in need plan, or child protection plan.
If they need to do a core assessment this will require a police check of you both, and a comprehensive assessment of the child and it's environment. I'm not sure which it is.
I appreciate you are cross, but you have a very young baby, and grunting is a very serious sign of a very poorly baby in severe respiratory distress. This is why you had an ambulance. They cannot tell over the phone if it's just a cold, or if your baby has something like pneumonia or meningitis.
In the objective scheme of things, you have demonstrated you cannot assess if your son is grunting or not, but you have said repeatedly he can't breathe. They have to escalate this. Hence needing an ambulance.
Second, you refused this. You then said your husband was drowsy, and he was the only driver. For a very little baby with breathing problems, you refused immediate help and put yourself in a position of HAVING TO RING A TAXI if your babies breathing got worse.
This is the reason for social service referral. You could have put a very poorly baby at risk.
You didn't, but they cannot know that. They therefore have to check, this is why they have contacted you.
It doesn't matter what the tone of voice was of the call handler, what the nurse mouthed or what the paramedic said. Ignore all of these. You need to demonstrate

  1. That you were certain he wasn't grunting and that his breathlessness wasn't serious (you had experience previously)
  2. That you refused an ambulance because it was just a cold.
Anyone can be a social services family, the very worst of abuse happens blind in middle class homes. Not only chavs get their kids taken away-that will not happen to you however, but you need to demonstrate that. Your professional call could be seen as a risk-you thought you knew better than emergency services. Again you need to demonstrate why. Think about it, as them as making sure a little baby is safe and that he is receiving proper medical care.
GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 22/11/2018 17:05

What a nightmare, OP, no wonder you're fuming.

I gather 111 are obliged to follow a script - I don't think they're allowed to deviate from it or use common sense.

Dd once phoned them about a relatively minor but uncomfortable childbirth-related matter - 4 days after she'd given birth.

One of the first questions she was asked was, 'Is there any chance you could be pregnant?'
Dd - 'No way - as I just said, I had a baby only 4 days ago.'

The same question was repeated at least twice!

Presumably they get sacked if they're found to be deviating from the script.

ladyvimes · 22/11/2018 17:05

People on this thread are very misinformed.

Firstly SS have to investigate every call and take each one seriously as they have no way of knowing if a call is malicious or not; so SS are doing everything correctly.

We only have op’s opinion that the 111 call handler was abrupt and cold. Perhaps she was but she is on the other end of a call and all she knows is there’s a tiny poorly baby. Mum has rung for advice and has chosen not to take it. 111 handlers will be taught to refer to SS if they have any doubt. Parents of a newborn with repeated calls to 111 and a&e visits is not normal and so may well warrant a referral. So may op’s attitude on the phone.

All these services behaved correctly and appropriately. It’s a shame OP is correct but it sounds like she needs some more support as she sounds very anxious about her baby who has a cold.

ladyvimes · 22/11/2018 17:06

*it’s a shame op is upset

Witchofwisteria · 22/11/2018 17:06

Let it go, it's a bit of a waste of 111 resources to deal with complaints and apologises to parents, I saw someone tell you to ask for a transcript ffs... I am sure the fact they did acknowledge the first call handler was very OTT meant they have spoken with her, don't drag it out for your own sanity also. Plus if you didn't think your baby might need to be seen then I don't know why you called 111 as of course their advise would be to see A&E due to babies age (plus you ended up going any way lol so you must of agreed with them in a way).

I'd welcome SS round for a cuppa if I'm honest, they will soon see nothing is wrong and be on their way. Unfortunately they have a duty to follow these things up.

Don't take it so personally, although that's easier said than done when you are so tired.

Steakandkidney · 22/11/2018 17:06

You may also need to demonstrate that your husband's drowsy medication is actually prescribed, what he had taken and why. They need to know you don't have a parent under the influence of strong medication regularly as that could be a risk if baby co sleeps or if he is in sole charge of baby. Everything is questioned when SS do an assessment.
When they visit, they will look everywhere in your home, where he sleeps, in the cupboards, where his milk is stored and so on. This is to ensure your home environment is safe for a baby. They may check his car seat if the car is there.
if it is a core assessment the assessment will be done on a laptop, and notes made under numerous points. They will ask about your wider family and support network and want details of GP, any significant medical information for baby and for you both.
They will ask your jobs and income.
They will do a police check, not a full DBS but a cross match with the police database. Any other person who has sole care of baby, unsupervised, will also need a check.
Please don't be scared by any of it, it really is just procedure, and totally routine.

Witchofwisteria · 22/11/2018 17:07

Also might I suggest calling health visitor team if you are wanting advice/reassurances

Diddlysquats · 22/11/2018 17:10

111 wouldn't have known that the baby had been to A&E/gp several times. They made this referral purely on the basis that the OP was saying that she would not take the baby to A&E on this occasion as she would monitor his condition herself.
So they haven't made a referral on that basis. They've made it on the basis of one piece of advice which the OP wasn't happy to take based on her previous experience.

Johnsi · 22/11/2018 17:11

I'm really surprised and upset to hear this. Just trying to put myself in your shoes - I'd be feeling all sorts of stress and sadness when all you're trying to do is look after your baby.

I think that 111 call handlers have to read from a script, mostly, and they come under a great amount of pressure to give the right advice/information - covering their backs, sort of thing. This doesn't excuse the way this person has treated you, however.

111 record all calls so there will be a log of this for you to ask them to review.

You can call 111 to ask how to make a complaint or you can go to PALS www.nhs.uk/Service-Search/Patient-advice-and-liaison-services-(PALS)/LocationSearch/363

With regard to SS, I was diagnosed with Post Natal Depression after my first baby and in my county it's an automatic referral to SS to monitor the situation. I, like you, was told that there was no real need for a referral but that they'd assign me a worker to touch-base once every few weeks just to see if I was managing the PND okay.

It was actually quite helpful - I got loads of information for local mum's groups and we were discharged from SS after 4 weeks. Hopefully the same sort of thing will happen for you (the helpful referral, not the PND, just to be clear).

Don't let this deter you from using 111 again if you need it (hopefully you won't) Flowers

Hope things start feeling better for you soon. Wish there was more I could do Brew

RomanyRoots · 22/11/2018 17:11

there is no such thing as a ss family, you've had one referral already so you can't say that.

i'm so sorry for what you have been through, it's best to engage with ss when they make initial contact, your dh didn't help there.

I hope your little one is better soon, colds make it all so difficult when they are little.
Wrap up warm and go for walks and then snuggle up and hibernate for the winter.
Baby will be plenty socialised by you and dh, some people don't use any baby/toddler groups and their kids are well socialised.

shearwater · 22/11/2018 17:12

You may also need to demonstrate that your husband's drowsy medication is actually prescribed, what he had taken and why.

That's crazy. Piriton, Night Nurse or Benilyn would make me unfit to drive and they are over the counter pharmacy medication.

shearwater · 22/11/2018 17:12

Also DH might have quite reasonably had a few drinks and have been unable to drive! He wasn't on his own with the baby.

stopmeifyouveheardthisonebe4 · 22/11/2018 17:15

SS are there for everybody. No one expects or wants to have SS involved. (Though they did help me escape a horribly abusive relationship) But things change. And you're even talking about motherhood being relentless and worrying that you are going to have PND - you do sound vulnerable and worried about your mental health.

It sounds like you might be isolated and only have medical professionals to turn to when your child is ill. This is a red flag to SS. Do you have family and friends to support you? And the biggest red flag which would have forced the referral would have been your decision to ignore the 111 advice to take your child to hospital. And to admit they to them. You called them for professional advice and then told them you'd just do what you thought best. They obviously felt you were not experienced and there was risk to your child, not in any malicious way, but through lack of experience and coping.
So I would take all the help you can get. Don't feel embarrassed or ashamed. Take it as a wake up call that you need some help. You do sound very anxious and flitting between not wanting to be told 'how to look after your child' and feeling completely overwhelmed.
Your husbands aggression on the phone to SS will not have helped either. Work with them. Don't write them off. Their concern is only for your child.

Jaynesworld · 22/11/2018 17:15

My dc had an accident when 2 years old. I was referred to ss. They came round, assesed me, my dh and my home, had a nice little chat and it was decided that my dc was in no danger, neglected or abused and was quite clearly from a loving home. So no further action was taken. It is honestly nothing to worry about. If you are rude and dismissive they will suspect that you have something to hide.

discopisco · 22/11/2018 17:15

*Er, we should not be demonising either111 or ss!! This thread is batshit

As for not being a 'ss' family op, well yes, you are one now!!! Whatever that means.

Asking for all the 'grunting' detail is odd. You sounded argumentative at the least *

Err, are you the lady at 111 I spoke to @WinterSpiceOnIce ?

OP posts:
Steakandkidney · 22/11/2018 17:17

Having had experience of the social services system I am giving OP a systematic detail of what may or may not be brought up at assessment. The full details of the call will be on the referral.
It won't matter, but the fact is OP refused an ambulance knowing her DH was intoxicated and couldn't drive. It might not be brought up but it might.
I am trying to prepare her for the questions they may ask.
It's ok saying 'yeah that's crazy' or 'fucking 111'. OP still has to go through this assessment. That's what I'm referring to, not giving an opinion. It's from my own experience. That is more useful than people's thoughts. SS have their own logic to ensure kids are safe and question everything.