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111 reported me to Social Services! Absolutely Fuming!!! (Sorry- LONG)

415 replies

discopisco · 22/11/2018 15:00

Posting here for traffic.

Background:

Me and DH are ftp to a much wanted and planned 11 week old baby. Baby is beautiful and the cutest thing we’ve ever seen but he’s a notoriously bad sleeper (he’s a cat napping meerkat at best). That coupled with the fact that baby has had a consistent cold/viral infection since 9 days old has meant that we’re both constantly exhausted and feel like we’ve been hit by a bus.

Context:

Baby has so far had a number of visits to see the GP for feeding/digestive issues and two visits to A&E- the first at 9 days of age because he wasn’t feeding well (diagnosed with a cold and prescribed saline drops) and the second time at 9 weeks old for the same issue plus him appearing drowsy/sleepy (totally out of character for the poor guy). The second visit to A&E came about when I rang NHS 111. The lady asked me a million questions and then said she was calling an ambulance just to be on the safe side. I cried thinking I’d missed major signs related to baby being poorly but she was lovely and reassuring and said baby seemed fine and the ambulance people would simply check him to see if further action was needed. As it happens, the paramedics arrived within minutes and carried out their assessments. They said they weren’t worried in the least and asked me why I’d requested an ambulance. I told Them I hadn’t- the lady at 111 had. At this, they looked at each other and rolled their eyes and one of them said something along the lines of ‘bloody idiots need their heads knocking together’. They told me that since they had been called they would have to take baby to A&E to get him checked over by medical staff. When we got to hospital and they handed us over to the triage nurse, she asked why they’d been sent out to see a child with symptoms of the cold. One of the paramedic said ‘111’ and the nurse mouthed ‘bloody t@ats’. After a couple of hours, baby was seen by the Paediatrician, diagnosed again as having a cold, prescribed saline drops again and we were sent home.

Current situation:

Baby was seriously congested, didn’t want to feed as much and wasn’t sleeping much at all- he’d sleep for a few minutes and would then wake up spluttering. I’d pick him up, pat his back and put him down again but the same thing would happen. Thinking 111 was an out of hours GP service and would advise me, I called them and asked them what I could do to help the baby breathe a bit better. After getting his details wrong a couple of times, I was passed onto someone else who also struggled to locate baby’s details on the 111 computer system. This second person was curt and very, very cold. She asked me a number of questions in a very robotic manner and simply wanted a yes/no answer. She asked me if baby was grunting when he breathed. I told her I didn’t think so but I didn’t know what a grunting breath sounded like. So I mimicked the baby and said ‘is that what you mean? Is that grunting?’ She said she wasn’t in a position to say as she wasn’t there with us. She asked me again if baby was grunting so I asked her to give me an example of a grunt- she said she couldn’t as different people had different versions of what a grunt was! In the end, I said baby was not grunting. At the end of the assessment, she said the baby didn’t sound like he was in danger but we should take him to A&E. I thanked her and said if he wasn’t in any danger then I’d keep an eye on him for the next couple of hours and if he got worse, I’d take him to hospital as my husband (the only driver) was ill himself and had taken medication that made him drowsy (I’d have called a cab). At this, she became incredulous and confrontational and said ‘are you putting your welfare ahead of your child’s? You need to get him to A&E now!’ Because she was so aloof throughout the call, the tone she used to speak to me made me see red so I repeated what I had said firmly that I’d monitor the baby myself and if things got any worse, I’d take him to the hospital. I explained we’d been in previously and been told the baby had had a cold and needed to rest it out. I said I didn’t think waiting in A&E past midnight on a cold night would do him any good. She completely ignored what I had said and kept talking over me repeating ‘so you’re not taking him to A&E?!’ When I said ‘not for the moment, no’. She said ‘right, I’m reporting you to social services- your child should be your first priority!’ When I asked to speak to her manager, she told me there wasn’t one but she’d get the duty Gp to call us as a matter of urgency.

We did end up going into A&E (at 1:30am) as baby’s temperature was slightly on the low side. The triage nurse told us baby looked okay. She also said since it was a busy night, we should be prepared for a long wait. While waiting, we got a call from the duty Dr at 111. She said from what we’d told her that the baby had a cold and that he needed a rest. She said it was good we’d gone into A&E just to be on the safe side. She apologised when I explained what her colleague had said about making a referral to Social Services. She said she’d put a note on the system for everything to be put on hold and that she’d get someone to give me a call in the morning to talk through that horrendous 111 call. We ended up waiting in a corridor from 1:30-8:30am (no beds cubicles/beds available as there were children there with much serious ailments) and when were seen by the Paediatrician, we were told they’d put us at the bottom of the list as baby had not been deemed ill/serious enough! We were given some more saline drops and sent on our way.

We got home about lunchtime and as I was rocking the baby to sleep. DH got a call from an anonymous number- our local social services! The social worker said we’d been referred overnight as a matter of urgency did he agree that our son was in danger of being neglected? DH told her about the call and how he felt it was a malicious referral and that he was not willing to discuss matters any further as we’d be making a formal complaint against the 111 member of staff for escalating things without reason. The SW told him that since a referral was made, they’d have to act one way or another- either with his consent or without!

To cut an even longer story short- no one from 111 direct called us again to query what had happened. The Social Worker has since passed on our details to the local children’s centre and we’ve had them make contact re: baby’s welfare. We’ve asked for support re: his sleep which although needed is more to get them off our backs. I’m so so so upset and angry that SS were used as a threat/ammunition by the 111 worker in an attempt to force us to comply to her dodgy assessment. I’m a regular user of the children’s centre and am now paranoid and self-conscious that the staff there will think I’m a bad mum because SS are involved with our family and that theyll pick on the littlest thing to report me again?! It’s put me off going to anymore sessions with the baby.

Both me and DH are professionals who are incredibly responsive parents. We are not a SS family. We need help getting the baby to sleep but can do that through a sleep consultant privately. We do not need a SW keeping an eye on us to do that.

So, my question is what should I do next? I’ve contacted 111 again and asked them to get someone senior to call me back re: a complaint. I’m thinking of contacting my local MP about this too. I can’t stand the Daily Fail but I hope one of their journalists is reading this and reports it. I’m so so upset. The relentlessness of motherhood- the constant feedings, changing, sleeplessness, lack of social support, etc. was already a massive struggle but I was managing to stay on the right side of good mental health. This referral is overwhelming me and I fear it’s going to lead to PND, especially since I’m reluctant to take the baby to sessions at the children’s centre. He’s been poorly as it is and we’ve been cooped up at home but I don’t know how I’ll be able to entertain him/socialise once he’s better because I can’t return to the children’s centre. I can’t do it- I feel so ashamed.

Apologies for the rant/she said- I said post but I just needed to get this off my chest. Would welcome other perspectives/advice/guidance.

OP posts:
SassitudeandSparkle · 22/11/2018 16:04

If you say to 111 that the patient has breathing difficulties, then they are going to suggest taking them to see someone. You rang them for advice and then disagreed with it, so yes with a very young baby I can see why they were concerned.

Babies do catnap. I had a poor sleeper myself so I do sympathise but especially with a blocked nose your baby is going to wake up, unfortunately. You are coming across as anxious - if that's not your usual default setting perhaps it is the lack of sleep, understandably!

Your GP should have an out of hours service that may not be 111 so I would definitely ring their number first.

Hannnnnnnxo · 22/11/2018 16:05

Every time I’ve called 111, they have been very clear that they’re going to ask me some questions which may sound strange or a repeat of what has already been discussed (as this is when they read off a script and record your answers to triage you).

I once called over heavy bleeding for 4 weeks whilst on the depo, she asked me if I was pregnant and then said ‘well obviously not if you’ve been bleeding for this long!’. I wasn’t annoyed - I’m aware that she was basically reading off of a script.

JessieMcJessie · 22/11/2018 16:06

What a nightmare OP, I do hope that you get some sort of response from 111 to address the call handler’s behaviour. The doctor you eventually spoke to sounded more reasonable though, I think?

A lot of people are saying “Find the number of your local out of hours GP service and use that instead”. In my borough (Haringey, North London) 111 IS the route to the out of hours GP. There is no other way to get to see him or her. All the GP surgeries say ring 111 out of hours. You call 111, the triage person assesses you and if necessary they make an appointment for you at the out of hours GP. Sometimes they put you on to a doctor by phone first if they are unable to assess you themselves and the doctor makes the call as to whether you should be seen at the surgery.

My son suffered similarly to yours OP when he was aabout the same age and at least twice I was given a GP appointment within 20 mins of putting down the phone. Worked really well. You’ll also be pleased to hear that he grew out of all the congestion and breathing issues by 3 months old.

Hope you get an apology.

12christmassausages · 22/11/2018 16:06

OP I think you will have lost a lot of helpful answers from your 'we're not a SS family.' What a stupid thing to say and a terrible attitude to have!

bumblenbean · 22/11/2018 16:07

What a terrible experience OP, I really feel for you. I have two young babies and have had cause to call 111 several times - it does seem that their default response is ‘take them to a&e’ and it can feel like an over reaction. We have once been sent there only to be told it was just a nasty cold which is a little embarrassing Shock

However on the flip side, once when DS was 3 months old he had a bad cough / cold and we took him to GP Who said it was just a virus. That night he seemed very wheezy, though still ok in himself, but being first time parents we called the out of hours GP and he said with young babies not to take the chance and to take him to hospital. Turned out he had very severe bronchiolitis, his oxygen levels were dangerously low and he was in ITU for a week over Christmas and according to the paeds consultant would probably have stopped breathing that night if we hadn’t taken him in. He was in fact quite brusque, almost as if he thought we were idiots for not bringing him in earlier. His words on seeing the oxygen saturation results were ‘well thank god he’s here now, that’s all I can say’ Confused

The scary thing was he hadn’t seeemd that unwell - it was more of a gut feeling that it might be more serious than we thought, coupled with my mum saying she didn’t think his breathing was right. But we had been assured by the doctor that it was just a cold virus....

So now we are ultra cautious and the thing is I think you have to be when they’re this little and vulnerable - so don’t feel bad about asking for help/ guidance. I do worry that we will be labelled as neurotic parents for seeing the doc whenever the babies are ill, but after our experience with bronchiolitis we just feel you can’t be too careful.

LittleMissMarker · 22/11/2018 16:07

We are not a SS family.

SS are supposed to be there for all children, and all parents, and you might want to have a rethink about your belief that because you are well-off middle class parents you never need real help. Maybe you need a bit of support because in a situation where I would have called my own Mum for advice (baby being not quite well, me feeling worried and a bit clueless) you can't do that.

So, my question is what should I do next?

What you should do next is nothing at all. Smile If SS call you again then make an appointment for them to meet you and the baby and talk politely to the SW when she arrives. Same if a social worker turns up randomly on the doorstep - invite them in, make tea, tell them how you and baby are doing, and tell them the story of trying to follow 111's advice and refer them back to the hospital.

Do keep going to the children's centre so you can get a bit of social support. And if you are going along to the children's centre that will help everyone to not blow things up out of proportion or see a problem where there is no problem.

how he felt it was a malicious referral and that he was not willing to discuss matters any further as we’d be making a formal complaint against the 111 member of staff for escalating things without reason.

Hm, that comes across as very aggressive. It must have been a shock and he's upset and stressed but ideally he should use neutral words like "mistake" or "confusion" and talk about how best to resolve the situation. Refusing to engage with SS and accusing 111 of malice is poking the hornet's nest.

The SW told him that since a referral was made, they’d have to act one way or another- either with his consent or without!

Well yes, they do have to. The social worker has no evidence except your husband's word that the referral is unjustified since presumably the hospital hadn't told them so. Bad timing.

As things are I advise taking some time to cool off possibly followed by a bit of pouring of oil on troubled waters!

Flowers
CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 22/11/2018 16:08

im not surprised the NHS is in meltdown - people going for heavy periods and colds.

111 reported me to Social Services! Absolutely Fuming!!! (Sorry- LONG)
oblada · 22/11/2018 16:08

I do sympathise but i agree with others - other than getting transcripts etc to get out of this mess, you probably need to look into some support for your own anxiety. It is stressful having children but I've only taken mine (my third one) to A&E when he was having convulsions. I don't think it ever occurred to me to ring 111 for cold symptoms or similar. But i appreciate if you have heard horror stories and/or are generally anxious it will affect your judgment.
I kind of get why SS would need to be a bit involved after so many calls/trips in a short space of time but they should be respectful and supportive. I think the HV is automatically informed of trips to the hospital etc.

user4041 · 22/11/2018 16:09

You seriously need to stop phoning 111 constantly, you'd be better of going to a boots pharmacy and speaking to someone there who can give you advice or book in with your GP.
SS are overstretched as it is and after the poor death of Baby P, people are more cautious and on the ball now so you will flag up constantly phoning and being so anxious over the smallest of things it's a common cold you can't keep relying on 111 to fix that, colds take time to come on and go again.

RatRolyPoly · 22/11/2018 16:09

Yes but surely it’s quite obvious the difference between a cold and a potentially serious illness?

Oh, were it that simple! Anything that involves breathing difficulties is hard to judge; my baby was ill, breathing slightly faster but you'd expect that with being a bit under the weather. If it wasn't for the slightly bluish-grey tinge that I almost convinced myself I'd imagined she never would have been hooked up to the oximeter that showed how dangerously ill she was.

And more recently she'd seen a doctor only 20 hours before being rushed into resus and hooked up to all sorts of drips and IV infusions. It can be a virus one minute, and very much more serious the next.

It's not an exact science, you have to trust your gut. There is no way to never waste the time of doctors and there's no way to catch every seriously ill baby. But as parents it's what we all do, we assess the situation and we do the best we can. And we defer to the professionals when we're honestly not sure.

Sindragosan · 22/11/2018 16:09

During the daytime, pharmacists will be happy to provide initial advice, and they have some helpful booklets on baby/child illness. Usually more sensible than 111 and if you tell your gp that a pharmacist thinks you should see someone else they'll normally see you pretty soon.

Around here you can only access out of hours Dr through 111, much to many peoples disgust.

BumsexAtTheBingo · 22/11/2018 16:10

Tbh if you’ve sought medical advice from 111 and then chosen to go against it it is going to trigger a referral. 111 are always overcautious with babies because they can’t examine them over the phone and they can deteriorate so quickly. In future I’d just check nhs choices for advice and go to the walk in if it’s more serious and obviously a&e if it’s an emergency.

Hissy · 22/11/2018 16:10

Sweetheart, there are a number of triggers for health care professionals to contact SS and it's to protect children first and foremost

Whenever a child is taken to A&E for an injury at home for example, they have to ask questions, they ask the child if old enough what happened and they ask the parent. For some things they have to make a referral.

My DS was injured at home and I got a call after we got out of hospital - but as I lived a long way from the hospital, it was passed to my LA SS and that was the last I heard.

Please don't be put off asking for a professional to look at your child if they are unwell and you are worried. It gets easier as they get older, this is all so overwhelming, I know

Hissy · 22/11/2018 16:11

I second the use of pharmacy too - i take my OH there if i think he needs his BP or whatever checking - it's really helped him in the past

Rachelover40 · 22/11/2018 16:11

Mrs Strowman, the op has already explained what she meant by that and apologised for clumsy phrasing.

Hopefully the cold is nearly over now and so is the drama.

Is there any way you can afford some experienced, kindly, professional help with your son, part time, so that the two of you are less engrossed with his every sniffle and can help you get some perspective? You'd also get some rest which you must need. I was exhausted just reading the thread and the idea of sitting in A&E from 1.30-8.30am for a bad cold is ridiculous. He will have lots of colds, that's life. You can buy decongestants/vapour to help babies with their breathing when they have a cold.

However I do agree you should get a transcript of your phone conversations with these people, one of whom was quite rude. I doubt you'll hear any more from social services.

YeahCorvid · 22/11/2018 16:12

Last time I tried to take a 12 month old to a pharmacist to get eye drops, the pharmacist said he wasn't allowed to advise for under two year olds. That was about 6 years ago so maybe things are different now. I suppose they have to be as it is basically impossible to see a GP.

CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 22/11/2018 16:13

Have you been seen by your HV - they will be notified everytime you attend A&E?

wotsittoyou · 22/11/2018 16:13

If a parent is concerned enough to call 111, and the child is very young/vulnerable, 111 always err on the side of caution and refer to a&e. If the parent doesn't take the child after it's been advised, they refer to social care. I've been advised to go to A&E everytime I've called for my three. On the one occasion I questioned the necessity of it, I was told that they were obliged to call children's social care if the child wasn't showing up as booked in at a&e within a reasonable time frame. It's their process. I'm sure it's very unusual for a parent to refuse to take their child to a&e once it has been recommended, so it's a red flag when it happens.

xJessica · 22/11/2018 16:15

That's absolutely ridiculous, and also makes me so mad that social services take things like this so seriously when there is actually no concern, yet a family near me has been reported several times for serious neglect yet the mum laughs about it in the school playground and says she has managed to get them off her back after one phonecall by saying it was her ex being malicious. They've never once investigated her and she has been reported many times by various concerned people Angry

loubluee · 22/11/2018 16:16

Please there is no such thing as a ss family- you will be surprised what can go on when things are hidden behind money, suites, professional jobs etc. It is in no way an indication that abuse won’t happen.

Anyway, away from that, have you been doing other things to help your little one breath? The advice when mine was little was to raise the head of the cot ever so slightly to help them breath. Do they still do this? Or is it a no-go now? What about running a hot shower and sitting in the bathroom with little one to help him breath?

It is scary when they are tiny, and you don’t know what is right or wrong. I remember my GP telling me to look to see if they are feeding normally, having plenty of wet nappies and normal temperature.
As pp mentioned it COULD be signs of an allergy, but it can just be the time of year when everything goes around, and it is a cold. It is also the case that things always seem worse at night. When it’s daytime, and you can call the doctor or visit the pharmacist they don’t seem to unwell. But once everything closes and night falls, things seem scarier.

I’m sorry you had such an unpleasantness experience. But I hope this doesn’t put off any new mums phoning for advice if they are worried about their little ones.

JessieMcJessie · 22/11/2018 16:16

Does your OH have some sort of condition that would prevent him finding his own way to a pharmacy Hissy?

Bleurgh0 · 22/11/2018 16:17

111 will always send you to A&E or send am ambulance. Always. You could ring with a paper cut and you'd wind up in A&E. I don't bother with them anymore.

I suspect this was triggered because she told you to go to A&E immediately and you didn't. I totally understand why you didn't but the answer isn't to ignore their advice, it's to never ring 111 on the first place.

You need to start making your own judgement about whether or not to go to A&E rather than asking 111. I appreciate that's hard if you're a ftp with a newborn.

Cailleachian · 22/11/2018 16:19

"We are not a SS family."

You are now.

People have an idea of a "Social Services Family" but quite a few "Social Services Families" are those who have fallen foul of some jobsworth, unpleasant family member, neighbour with a grudge....or even just contacted someone to ask advice - as you did - and been referred unnecessarily.

Its good that you are confident, have a reasonable income, a supportive partner and the issue with your child is fairly minor, which will make you more resilient towards the stress that this will bring into your life. For those who are not so fortunate, such unnecessary referrals are the push that drives them from "struggling but coping" to "going under".

The system needs changing urgently.

RatRolyPoly · 22/11/2018 16:20

I suspect this was triggered because she told you to go to A&E immediately and you didn't. I totally understand why you didn't but the answer isn't to ignore their advice, it's to never ring 111 on the first place.

I've been thinking about it and, to expand on this, I think it's wise to only call 111 if you are prepared to go to A&E in the first place. If you wouldn't be prepared to go on the back of their advice, don't call.

But if you would be prepared to go, they can still be useful to call I think. Sometimes the difference between OOH, A&E and ambulance is a call they're better placed to make.

StuckSoutherner · 22/11/2018 16:20

I'm not sure which area of country you're in OP but regardless call them during office hours and ask to be put through to the Clinical Governance Officer. If they don't have one you will accept the Head of Quality Standards (usually a nurse or medical professional). Explain everything that you have here, request that the call is audited for compliance and a recording of said call is forwarded to you. They will likely bleep the name of the staff member, that's fine as they can be tracked within the organisation based on their Pilot phone login. Then once the call has been audited request a meeting with Governance Officer/Head of Quality. From a SS perspective they're bound by law to investigate- as others have said they will want to close down unnecessary contacts as soon as possible so go through the motions and please keep going to the CC - why should you and your little one miss out because someone hasn't done their job properly?!