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111 reported me to Social Services! Absolutely Fuming!!! (Sorry- LONG)

415 replies

discopisco · 22/11/2018 15:00

Posting here for traffic.

Background:

Me and DH are ftp to a much wanted and planned 11 week old baby. Baby is beautiful and the cutest thing we’ve ever seen but he’s a notoriously bad sleeper (he’s a cat napping meerkat at best). That coupled with the fact that baby has had a consistent cold/viral infection since 9 days old has meant that we’re both constantly exhausted and feel like we’ve been hit by a bus.

Context:

Baby has so far had a number of visits to see the GP for feeding/digestive issues and two visits to A&E- the first at 9 days of age because he wasn’t feeding well (diagnosed with a cold and prescribed saline drops) and the second time at 9 weeks old for the same issue plus him appearing drowsy/sleepy (totally out of character for the poor guy). The second visit to A&E came about when I rang NHS 111. The lady asked me a million questions and then said she was calling an ambulance just to be on the safe side. I cried thinking I’d missed major signs related to baby being poorly but she was lovely and reassuring and said baby seemed fine and the ambulance people would simply check him to see if further action was needed. As it happens, the paramedics arrived within minutes and carried out their assessments. They said they weren’t worried in the least and asked me why I’d requested an ambulance. I told Them I hadn’t- the lady at 111 had. At this, they looked at each other and rolled their eyes and one of them said something along the lines of ‘bloody idiots need their heads knocking together’. They told me that since they had been called they would have to take baby to A&E to get him checked over by medical staff. When we got to hospital and they handed us over to the triage nurse, she asked why they’d been sent out to see a child with symptoms of the cold. One of the paramedic said ‘111’ and the nurse mouthed ‘bloody t@ats’. After a couple of hours, baby was seen by the Paediatrician, diagnosed again as having a cold, prescribed saline drops again and we were sent home.

Current situation:

Baby was seriously congested, didn’t want to feed as much and wasn’t sleeping much at all- he’d sleep for a few minutes and would then wake up spluttering. I’d pick him up, pat his back and put him down again but the same thing would happen. Thinking 111 was an out of hours GP service and would advise me, I called them and asked them what I could do to help the baby breathe a bit better. After getting his details wrong a couple of times, I was passed onto someone else who also struggled to locate baby’s details on the 111 computer system. This second person was curt and very, very cold. She asked me a number of questions in a very robotic manner and simply wanted a yes/no answer. She asked me if baby was grunting when he breathed. I told her I didn’t think so but I didn’t know what a grunting breath sounded like. So I mimicked the baby and said ‘is that what you mean? Is that grunting?’ She said she wasn’t in a position to say as she wasn’t there with us. She asked me again if baby was grunting so I asked her to give me an example of a grunt- she said she couldn’t as different people had different versions of what a grunt was! In the end, I said baby was not grunting. At the end of the assessment, she said the baby didn’t sound like he was in danger but we should take him to A&E. I thanked her and said if he wasn’t in any danger then I’d keep an eye on him for the next couple of hours and if he got worse, I’d take him to hospital as my husband (the only driver) was ill himself and had taken medication that made him drowsy (I’d have called a cab). At this, she became incredulous and confrontational and said ‘are you putting your welfare ahead of your child’s? You need to get him to A&E now!’ Because she was so aloof throughout the call, the tone she used to speak to me made me see red so I repeated what I had said firmly that I’d monitor the baby myself and if things got any worse, I’d take him to the hospital. I explained we’d been in previously and been told the baby had had a cold and needed to rest it out. I said I didn’t think waiting in A&E past midnight on a cold night would do him any good. She completely ignored what I had said and kept talking over me repeating ‘so you’re not taking him to A&E?!’ When I said ‘not for the moment, no’. She said ‘right, I’m reporting you to social services- your child should be your first priority!’ When I asked to speak to her manager, she told me there wasn’t one but she’d get the duty Gp to call us as a matter of urgency.

We did end up going into A&E (at 1:30am) as baby’s temperature was slightly on the low side. The triage nurse told us baby looked okay. She also said since it was a busy night, we should be prepared for a long wait. While waiting, we got a call from the duty Dr at 111. She said from what we’d told her that the baby had a cold and that he needed a rest. She said it was good we’d gone into A&E just to be on the safe side. She apologised when I explained what her colleague had said about making a referral to Social Services. She said she’d put a note on the system for everything to be put on hold and that she’d get someone to give me a call in the morning to talk through that horrendous 111 call. We ended up waiting in a corridor from 1:30-8:30am (no beds cubicles/beds available as there were children there with much serious ailments) and when were seen by the Paediatrician, we were told they’d put us at the bottom of the list as baby had not been deemed ill/serious enough! We were given some more saline drops and sent on our way.

We got home about lunchtime and as I was rocking the baby to sleep. DH got a call from an anonymous number- our local social services! The social worker said we’d been referred overnight as a matter of urgency did he agree that our son was in danger of being neglected? DH told her about the call and how he felt it was a malicious referral and that he was not willing to discuss matters any further as we’d be making a formal complaint against the 111 member of staff for escalating things without reason. The SW told him that since a referral was made, they’d have to act one way or another- either with his consent or without!

To cut an even longer story short- no one from 111 direct called us again to query what had happened. The Social Worker has since passed on our details to the local children’s centre and we’ve had them make contact re: baby’s welfare. We’ve asked for support re: his sleep which although needed is more to get them off our backs. I’m so so so upset and angry that SS were used as a threat/ammunition by the 111 worker in an attempt to force us to comply to her dodgy assessment. I’m a regular user of the children’s centre and am now paranoid and self-conscious that the staff there will think I’m a bad mum because SS are involved with our family and that theyll pick on the littlest thing to report me again?! It’s put me off going to anymore sessions with the baby.

Both me and DH are professionals who are incredibly responsive parents. We are not a SS family. We need help getting the baby to sleep but can do that through a sleep consultant privately. We do not need a SW keeping an eye on us to do that.

So, my question is what should I do next? I’ve contacted 111 again and asked them to get someone senior to call me back re: a complaint. I’m thinking of contacting my local MP about this too. I can’t stand the Daily Fail but I hope one of their journalists is reading this and reports it. I’m so so upset. The relentlessness of motherhood- the constant feedings, changing, sleeplessness, lack of social support, etc. was already a massive struggle but I was managing to stay on the right side of good mental health. This referral is overwhelming me and I fear it’s going to lead to PND, especially since I’m reluctant to take the baby to sessions at the children’s centre. He’s been poorly as it is and we’ve been cooped up at home but I don’t know how I’ll be able to entertain him/socialise once he’s better because I can’t return to the children’s centre. I can’t do it- I feel so ashamed.

Apologies for the rant/she said- I said post but I just needed to get this off my chest. Would welcome other perspectives/advice/guidance.

OP posts:
Innocentconglomeration · 23/11/2018 08:46

But every parent ever who is referred to SS when there is a suspicion of neglect thinks it isn’t justified.

You’ve obviously reached the level to trigger that. You’re going to have to realise that and deal with it.

Anxiety - esp around baby’s health - is a v common feature of PND.

DragonFire99 · 23/11/2018 08:50

Agreewith cestlavielife.

Ringing 111 three times in 11 weeks? Two visits to A&E for a cold?

You need to get your anxiety under control. Google how to help babies with a cold breathe better.

Do a baby first aid course (the NCT might run one).

SS might be concerned that you're not coping.

RatRolyPoly · 23/11/2018 09:23

An ear infection is neither an accident nor emergency!

Um, actually ear infections certainly can be an emergency in young children. Untreated they can lead to meningitis and sepsis, so the pp absolutely did the right thing to see someone if her child with an ear infection seemed in need of treatment rather than waiting until it was too late!

Seriously, if you wait until a sick baby is a blue light emergency it's already far later than anyone would advise waiting.

MadeleineMaxwell · 23/11/2018 10:17

I was the same with DS. Turns out he had CMPA and that's a whole other story. The most helpful advice I got from the HVs was to look at the overall baby. One symptom could be anything, but if they're also generally unwell enough to worry you (unresponsive, hard to wake, hot/cold/sweaty etc.), then get them seen. DS is now a 3 yo tornado of boundless energy and health.

None of our GPs ever begrudged seeing a tiny baby and a worried mother, none of them. They may have sent me away without diagnosing him properly, but nobody ever told me I was daft to seek medical advice. We also seem to be really lucky here in that you can generally get a same-day appointment for kids at least.

I'll never understand these people who think you're wasting NHS resources by asking for medical advice. It's what they're for. If laypeople could diagnose, we wouldn't need doctors.

The SS thing sounds like it's a formality you're going to have to grit your teeth and smile through. I'm really sorry that's happened to you off the back of a very odd-sounding person's attitude.

Yarnswift · 23/11/2018 10:18

I’ve just read your sleep thread.

I’ve been there. Ds1? Woke at least hourly for 18m. It is absolutely brutal having a non sleeper.

I was on the sleep boards a few years ago and just totally despairing. I got a bit shirty with one poster who said I sounded anxious. I just needed to fucking sleep.

Babies may on average sleep 16 hours a day (hollow laugh) but mine didn’t. 5 or six max, in small bursts. I don’t need to tell you how hard it is.

But what I will say is I WAS anxious. I was actually diagnosed with severe OCD later in the year and I’m fairly sure that while I’ve had it my whole life, it was lack of sleep that really just stopped me being able to mask it.

If you’re not sleeping everything is a million times worse. You’ve got a baby with a cold, and it IS worrying when they can’t breathe and they CAN go downhill fast and the advice IS to call 111!

So. My advice (which please do take or leave because I had so much advice and I wanted frankly to deck people for some of it) is this:

A snot sucker and saline
A humidifier
(Possibly unpopular, please ignore as needed) consider giving a supplementary bottle and let DH take the baby for a few hours so you can SLEEP. I was so committed to ebf. I wish I’d just given him the odd bottle. When we finally did try him he refused it. My second baby is mainly bf but has a bottle in the evenings (or if I need to go out or when I had an awful cold and my milk supply dipped) and OMG - so, so much easier.
You can try all the techniques people show you but you cannot ever MAKE a baby sleep. You can help them along a bit, but you’re knocking your head against a brick wall to an extent. So do all the sensible stuff (dark night, light day, flexible routine blah blah) but things got better for us the day we just accepted that it wasn’t happening and we needed to adjust our routines (by the way, we’d tried EVERYTHING- we were at hospital consultant level by that point. They tried everything and it failed and they offered us drugs for him. Then one consultant just said ‘some kids just don’t sleep.’ And I thought fuck all this, we just need to get through it.)

So we slept in shifts. We made sure each of us had a couple of decent chunks of sleep each week. And that made things better for us (he still didn’t sleep but I wasn’t going mad anymore.)

Eventually he got it and is now great sleepwise.

Anyway, long rambly post but basically hang on in there and get sleep any way you humanly can. Be kind to yourself - sleep deprivation is the worst.

abacucat · 23/11/2018 10:20

At the end of the assessment, she said the baby didn’t sound like he was in danger but we should take him to A&E.
OP you said in your original post that the caller did tell you to take the baby to A&E, although it sounds like the caller was arse covering. You said you would monitor and take your baby if they got worse. I agree with your actions, but officially this is a refusal to take your baby to A&E when advised. This would lead to a referral to SS for the reasons I already explained.

Your DH being aggressive with SS and refusing to cooperate will also trigger questions of whether he has something to hide.

BUT since your baby is not being abused it will be fine. They will ask questions and since Drs have seen your baby, they will be able to verify that there is no sign of abuse, and the case will be closed. They might visit you in your home as well to check that out. Please cooperate.

I agree that some posters are being very unsympathetic. Newborn babies are so tiny and it is scary when they are ill, add in sleep deprivation and it gets even scarier.

In terms of whether you take it further, I would question whether you want this additional stress in your life. I know I wouldn't. Yes some call handlers are great, some are awful.

Keep going to the Children's Centre, and please don't ever let this experience stop you seeking medical advice for your baby.
Everything will feel better in the future when you can get some sleep. Sleep deprivation makes everything seem much worse.

bunnyup · 23/11/2018 10:44

Op some people just love to stick the knife in. I feel very sorry for the children of some of the people on here who would wait until the morning to seek medical advice about a TINY baby wheezing and congested. You absolutely did the right thing.

My baby had a cold, a wheezy sound and congested. Otherwise ok. I waited until the morning, got a GP appointment at 9.30. She went downhill very rapidly, by 10am she was in A&E on intravenous salbutamol. Thankfully all ok in a day or two. You are not anxious, or hysterical. You absolutely 100% did the right thing. The 111 call handler was just shit at their job and will hopefully be disciplined and get better training.

As for the poster who wrote "of course babies struggle to breathe just like adults when they have a cold" Confused The thought of an 11 week old baby in your care makes my blood run cold.

Bowlofbabelfish · 23/11/2018 10:58

of course babies struggle to breathe just like adults when they have a cold"

Babies suffer more - they breathe through their noses mainly and so suffer when they’re blocked up.

Snotsuckers - absolutely bloody great.

CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 23/11/2018 11:30

I argued with 111 before when the guy in the phone couldn't get a nurse to talk to me about my daughter. Wanted me to go straight to a and e and wait for 4 hours. I wanted an out of hours appointment as I knew it was an ear infection. I persisted and told him I wouldn't be going to a and e without an appointment and he shouted at me, misunderstood what I was saying and told me because I had been on a plane 2 weeks previous, my daughter was in danger and her ear drum had burst (no it definitely hadn't).

I think you need to re-read the post. he OP was argumentative, wouldn't go to a&e and told the poor chap what was wrong wither DD. Sounds like that could have waited.

RatRolyPoly · 23/11/2018 11:50

Sounds like that could have waited.

Not to me, it doesn't. It sounds like the person best able to say whether or not it could have waited at the time is that poster.

Stop spoiling for a fight. It's admirable that you don't want NHS resources wasted, but small babies with infections are a dangerous target for the usual "wait until the morning" advice.

CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 23/11/2018 12:36

I dont want a fight, just to give my opinion!

RatRolyPoly · 23/11/2018 12:56

That's cool, my bad Smile

Allaboutmeandyou · 23/11/2018 13:33

I feel very sorry for the children of some of the people on here who would wait until the morning to seek medical advice about a TINY baby wheezing and congested. You absolutely did the right thing.

You post is contradicting what the op posted she sought medical advice from a call handler who advised her to go to A and E. Where there would be doctors and nurses who could check her baby. Why ignore the advice given. Then her dh is difficult with the social worker of course alarm bells are going to be ringing. She could of got a taxi to A and E. The op told her that her baby has gone to a and e so she don't need to go back because they told her its a cold and Dh is woozy anyway so cant drive. To the call handler it probably looked as if they were thinking of themselves and not the health of their baby.

I called the out of hours GP when my baby had an eye infection they sent a prescription to the 24hour pharmacy. I called a cab to pick it up no drama at all. If the op wants medical advice she needs to ring out of hours GP and they will advise her properly.

MemoryOfSleep · 23/11/2018 13:36

Sorry you've left the thread, OP, but in case you come back, I had the same issues with my DD and we ended up in hospital/doctors as much as you. Thankfully, 111 referred us to the urgent care centre nearby rather than A and E though.

Just came on to say that in our case she grew out of it at about 14 weeks and suddenly started sleeping loads better-some babies are apparently like this because when they're born their nasal passages are too small. I hope the same is true for your LO and that it gets better soon. It is scary with your first. My only tips are put your humidifier on full whack and sleep as much as possible in the day. Co sleeping also helped us, but I appreciate that's not for everyone and recommend that you follow the safer co-sleeping guidelines if you do. Good luck Flowers

elliejjtiny · 23/11/2018 13:36

Ss are not baby snatchers who take children away to punish the parents for their mistakes. They are there to protect children and to put in support when needed. I was referred to social services when I kept crying on the postnatal ward after my traumatic birth and dh didn't visit for more than a few minutes every day because he was looking after our other dc. I just got a phonecall and they recommended I go to the children's centre for support.

abacucat · 23/11/2018 13:36

I feel very sorry for the children of some of the people on here who would wait until the morning to seek medical advice about a TINY baby wheezing and congested. You absolutely did the right thing.

In some cases that could mean taking the baby to A&E every week. You re being ridiculous.
But anyone worried about their baby should always seek medical advice.

Shepherdspieisminging · 23/11/2018 13:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Allaboutmeandyou · 23/11/2018 13:42

One more thing you can pay to speak to a doctor online through skype. You have to pay for it but its very convenient because they can look at your baby and send a prescription to your local pharmacist. I found a free online NHS GP service for free it runs 24/7 and 365 days a year www.gpathand.nhs.uk/. If that don't work out pay to speak to an online GP my partner used them once there good.

LittleMissPonsible · 23/11/2018 13:47

I’m surprised by the number of people saying ‘Oh, it’s just a cold, who goes to hospital for a cold?!’My 3 children and I are recovering from a really rotten cold just now. My 4yo DS, 6yo DD and I got through it on paracetamol, ibuprofen, vicks, steamy showers etc. My 6 week old DD on the other hand, was hospitalised for 4 days. She became very dehydrated and struggled to breath. She was hooked up to monitors, tube fed and needed nasal prongs to give her oxygen. The ward she was on had many babies with the same symptoms. She had the same bug we had, she just couldn’t fight it off in the same way. I really hope no first time mum reads this thread and doubts herself in taking her small baby to be seen, it is always best to get checked out. Also, little ones deteriorate quickly, take baby again to be seen if things get worse.

What I would say to you OP, I only ever use 111 to get seen out of hours. Perhaps it works differently in different places, but I would not phone 111 to ask for advice, I would use the nhs website, pharmacist or speak to my mum or another mum who has experience of the symptoms my child is experiencing. 111 has to cover their own backs, they have set questions to ask you, just like a quiz, and if you tick yes for certain questions they will have to implement a particular response eg this child must be seen, and ambulance must be sent. I have always found this works well for getting my children seen out of hours, but by the time I use them I have exhausted the options my internet searching/pharmacist/mum have given and we need extra help.

Obviously SS referral is way OTT, but to be fair, any time 111 has recommended my DC be seen they have needed additional medical interventions by a doctor, not taking them to be seen in this situation would have been negligent of me. I would imagine it is entirely possible that call handlers could speak to parents who do actually neglect their children, for example, they might want an ambulance to come and take the child so they do not have to deal with them and when this isn’t forthcoming they don’t bother helping their child themselves. In that situation, an SS referral might be the final piece in the jigsaw that gets a genuinely neglected child noticed by SS.

JessieMcJessie · 23/11/2018 18:19

allanoutmeandyou that GP at hand service seems to be available only to people who live within 40 minutes of 5 clinics in London, and you have to switch your registration to it from your local surgery.

ItWasntMeItWasIm · 23/11/2018 18:19

One thing that really stands out for me is that you are worried about taking him out for walks in case he catches something. Fresh air really is good for babies and for you.

KellyW88 · 23/11/2018 18:54

Oh boy I’ve had some crap dealings with Social Services - their policy is to assess any referral because they must see for themselves a situation before they can officially sign off that there are no risks to baby... it stabs like a blunt knife as a parent to be told this... and boy the first social worker we dealt with was a bully. But the second one we dealt with was actually very lovely and helpful. I had an issue with being overly worried about my twins health as they had been born extremely low weight and prematurely due to issues with blood flow to their placentas... so after four months of being in NICU with them with nurses, doctors and other parents to support me I was suddenly alone with only my instincts to trust and so I went with the ‘better safe than sorry’ option and so their worry was more about me (not in a bad way I might add) and not my love/ability to care for my children and after a few chats I was signed off of their lists as no risk.

They will come, no matter what, it’s their obligation and that first visit can be hellish - I’m honestly not trying to scare you - they may make you feel as though you’re being interrogated (the one I had said they have to do this to gauge what kind of person you are)

For me it was horrible, they arrived unannounced and I was home alone with the twins (DH was at work) there were three of them and this made me feel quite vulnerable as they went around our one bedroom flat and told me everything I HAD to improve as soon as possible (it wasn’t an extensive list as I was doing my best to keep the place tidy/sanitary) they tried to start a witch hunt against my pet cats as a ‘definite hazard’ to my babies and when they left I was shaken - they did all this as I had just gotten through the most traumatic time of my life in NICU...

I would recommend the following:

Keep chasing both complaints as it’s entirely unfair on decent parents that this can happen.

Prepare for the inevitable - they will visit. Try to have another adult with you, either your DH ideally or a trusted parent/friend, they change their attitude pretty quick if there’s another witness on your side (that’s if you’re unlucky and get an attack dog like I did Wink) it’s best if the witness is able to sit quietly and only offer comment where absolutely necessary. I had my FIL who was brilliant at this and it levelled the playing field quite a lot!

As hard as it is - don’t panic, they can’t get anything from you unless you let them and if you can - record the meeting so you can get your extremely fair perspective on record with their answers for future use in your complaint.

I hope your experience is nothing like mine, but just in case I wanted to share to try and help you prepare in case it’s needed x

toconclude · 24/11/2018 00:52

Oh and SS should be checking hospital records; sounds like people are just making trouble for you OP - definitely complain."

Social services don't have automatic access to hospital records so complaining that they are 'making trouble for you' on that basis is unreasonable.
111 do however work from a script with little to no clinical knowledge, as others have said,and are prone to overreact - we get a lot of adult Safeguarding referrals based on misheard/misunderstood 111 conversations which turn out to be nothing.

Shepherdspieisminging · 24/11/2018 00:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Charmlight · 24/11/2018 12:58

And lets all be grateful that there are systems in place, not foolproof, but present nonetheless, that flag up possible concerns.
This referral hasn’t gone through on someone’s whim.