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111 reported me to Social Services! Absolutely Fuming!!! (Sorry- LONG)

415 replies

discopisco · 22/11/2018 15:00

Posting here for traffic.

Background:

Me and DH are ftp to a much wanted and planned 11 week old baby. Baby is beautiful and the cutest thing we’ve ever seen but he’s a notoriously bad sleeper (he’s a cat napping meerkat at best). That coupled with the fact that baby has had a consistent cold/viral infection since 9 days old has meant that we’re both constantly exhausted and feel like we’ve been hit by a bus.

Context:

Baby has so far had a number of visits to see the GP for feeding/digestive issues and two visits to A&E- the first at 9 days of age because he wasn’t feeding well (diagnosed with a cold and prescribed saline drops) and the second time at 9 weeks old for the same issue plus him appearing drowsy/sleepy (totally out of character for the poor guy). The second visit to A&E came about when I rang NHS 111. The lady asked me a million questions and then said she was calling an ambulance just to be on the safe side. I cried thinking I’d missed major signs related to baby being poorly but she was lovely and reassuring and said baby seemed fine and the ambulance people would simply check him to see if further action was needed. As it happens, the paramedics arrived within minutes and carried out their assessments. They said they weren’t worried in the least and asked me why I’d requested an ambulance. I told Them I hadn’t- the lady at 111 had. At this, they looked at each other and rolled their eyes and one of them said something along the lines of ‘bloody idiots need their heads knocking together’. They told me that since they had been called they would have to take baby to A&E to get him checked over by medical staff. When we got to hospital and they handed us over to the triage nurse, she asked why they’d been sent out to see a child with symptoms of the cold. One of the paramedic said ‘111’ and the nurse mouthed ‘bloody t@ats’. After a couple of hours, baby was seen by the Paediatrician, diagnosed again as having a cold, prescribed saline drops again and we were sent home.

Current situation:

Baby was seriously congested, didn’t want to feed as much and wasn’t sleeping much at all- he’d sleep for a few minutes and would then wake up spluttering. I’d pick him up, pat his back and put him down again but the same thing would happen. Thinking 111 was an out of hours GP service and would advise me, I called them and asked them what I could do to help the baby breathe a bit better. After getting his details wrong a couple of times, I was passed onto someone else who also struggled to locate baby’s details on the 111 computer system. This second person was curt and very, very cold. She asked me a number of questions in a very robotic manner and simply wanted a yes/no answer. She asked me if baby was grunting when he breathed. I told her I didn’t think so but I didn’t know what a grunting breath sounded like. So I mimicked the baby and said ‘is that what you mean? Is that grunting?’ She said she wasn’t in a position to say as she wasn’t there with us. She asked me again if baby was grunting so I asked her to give me an example of a grunt- she said she couldn’t as different people had different versions of what a grunt was! In the end, I said baby was not grunting. At the end of the assessment, she said the baby didn’t sound like he was in danger but we should take him to A&E. I thanked her and said if he wasn’t in any danger then I’d keep an eye on him for the next couple of hours and if he got worse, I’d take him to hospital as my husband (the only driver) was ill himself and had taken medication that made him drowsy (I’d have called a cab). At this, she became incredulous and confrontational and said ‘are you putting your welfare ahead of your child’s? You need to get him to A&E now!’ Because she was so aloof throughout the call, the tone she used to speak to me made me see red so I repeated what I had said firmly that I’d monitor the baby myself and if things got any worse, I’d take him to the hospital. I explained we’d been in previously and been told the baby had had a cold and needed to rest it out. I said I didn’t think waiting in A&E past midnight on a cold night would do him any good. She completely ignored what I had said and kept talking over me repeating ‘so you’re not taking him to A&E?!’ When I said ‘not for the moment, no’. She said ‘right, I’m reporting you to social services- your child should be your first priority!’ When I asked to speak to her manager, she told me there wasn’t one but she’d get the duty Gp to call us as a matter of urgency.

We did end up going into A&E (at 1:30am) as baby’s temperature was slightly on the low side. The triage nurse told us baby looked okay. She also said since it was a busy night, we should be prepared for a long wait. While waiting, we got a call from the duty Dr at 111. She said from what we’d told her that the baby had a cold and that he needed a rest. She said it was good we’d gone into A&E just to be on the safe side. She apologised when I explained what her colleague had said about making a referral to Social Services. She said she’d put a note on the system for everything to be put on hold and that she’d get someone to give me a call in the morning to talk through that horrendous 111 call. We ended up waiting in a corridor from 1:30-8:30am (no beds cubicles/beds available as there were children there with much serious ailments) and when were seen by the Paediatrician, we were told they’d put us at the bottom of the list as baby had not been deemed ill/serious enough! We were given some more saline drops and sent on our way.

We got home about lunchtime and as I was rocking the baby to sleep. DH got a call from an anonymous number- our local social services! The social worker said we’d been referred overnight as a matter of urgency did he agree that our son was in danger of being neglected? DH told her about the call and how he felt it was a malicious referral and that he was not willing to discuss matters any further as we’d be making a formal complaint against the 111 member of staff for escalating things without reason. The SW told him that since a referral was made, they’d have to act one way or another- either with his consent or without!

To cut an even longer story short- no one from 111 direct called us again to query what had happened. The Social Worker has since passed on our details to the local children’s centre and we’ve had them make contact re: baby’s welfare. We’ve asked for support re: his sleep which although needed is more to get them off our backs. I’m so so so upset and angry that SS were used as a threat/ammunition by the 111 worker in an attempt to force us to comply to her dodgy assessment. I’m a regular user of the children’s centre and am now paranoid and self-conscious that the staff there will think I’m a bad mum because SS are involved with our family and that theyll pick on the littlest thing to report me again?! It’s put me off going to anymore sessions with the baby.

Both me and DH are professionals who are incredibly responsive parents. We are not a SS family. We need help getting the baby to sleep but can do that through a sleep consultant privately. We do not need a SW keeping an eye on us to do that.

So, my question is what should I do next? I’ve contacted 111 again and asked them to get someone senior to call me back re: a complaint. I’m thinking of contacting my local MP about this too. I can’t stand the Daily Fail but I hope one of their journalists is reading this and reports it. I’m so so upset. The relentlessness of motherhood- the constant feedings, changing, sleeplessness, lack of social support, etc. was already a massive struggle but I was managing to stay on the right side of good mental health. This referral is overwhelming me and I fear it’s going to lead to PND, especially since I’m reluctant to take the baby to sessions at the children’s centre. He’s been poorly as it is and we’ve been cooped up at home but I don’t know how I’ll be able to entertain him/socialise once he’s better because I can’t return to the children’s centre. I can’t do it- I feel so ashamed.

Apologies for the rant/she said- I said post but I just needed to get this off my chest. Would welcome other perspectives/advice/guidance.

OP posts:
MarvinMarvinson · 22/11/2018 23:43

This reply has been deleted

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Imissgmichael · 22/11/2018 23:46

Muncheys go and have a biscuit and stop talking bollocks. That’s what 111 is for, non emergency medical advice. Look it up if you don’t believe me. As for wrongly going to A & E, for goodness sake it’s because she wouldn’t go to A & E she’s been referred to SS . Read the thread.

Imissgmichael · 22/11/2018 23:54

Marvin, this absolute cock is medically qualified and it took a damn side longer than 6 weeks. 111 is an absolute joke the most of the time. Iv ring then twice and despite telling them about my qualifications they treated me like I was stupid. There on a par with some doctors receptionist, full of themselves but no substance.

bookbuddy · 22/11/2018 23:57

Absolutely awful service from 111,but to all those saying about not wasting resources for a cold if ever your babies breathing is ever not normal seek help! Ive had first hand experience of resus with my dc and believe me it’s not something you ever get over.

Imissgmichael · 22/11/2018 23:58

They’re not there. Oh and btw they treated my doctor friend the same. But hey, all hail the 6 weeks training.

abacucat · 23/11/2018 00:01

When children and babies are murdered by parents, there is a case review. This looks at what red flags there were that were not picked up on by professionals. These case reviews lead to changes in policies and procedures.

So parents refusing to follow medical advice for their children, their child missing appointments, their child not being taken to A&E when being advised to - are all situations that have happened before a child has been murdered. For example, parent rings 111 for advice but refuses to take child to A&E because the child is being beaten and staff will see this. Serious case reviews identify these points when it should have been picked up that there might have been an issue.

This is why not taking a child to A&E when advised to, will lead to a SS referral. The majority of the time there will be a valid reason as to why parents have not done this. But the referral is made to pick up the times when SS needs to be involved.

SS referral in this case just means that SS needs to check out the situation. They can not just take your DH's say so though, they do need to check it out. This is because abusers obviously lie, or genuinely think that what they are doing is fine. SS will be used to parents who are abusive claiming a different thing happened, to the actual truth. This is why they can not simply take your DHs word for it. You know it is the truth, but SS need to check it out.

Don't stop going to the Children's Centre though. Your child is well cared for so you have nothing to hide. And believe me SS are so overwhelmed with cases of abuse that after checking you out, you will be off the radar completely. Also try and be reassured that lots of loving parents are referred to SS under safeguarding when they hit one of these red flags. So try not to worry about it.

And do cooperate with SS and advise your DH not to be aggressive to them.

RichSheffield · 23/11/2018 00:15

Sounds a bit daft really. As you know the call handler is on a recorded line so if the computer has said you need to attend a&e and they hear that you're going to ignore that advice they are on the line if they dont repremand you and something goes wrong. The nhs works very defensively.

Secondly regards safeguarding and children there is generally a problem of under reporting since we only see a little pieceof the puzzle that is just a little bit odd or unusual, so gets missed. It's only when the little reports build up that a picture is painted. No one will ever ever be reprimanded for raising a concern that they have with the safeguarding team about a child.

As has been pointed out SS might have be satisfied following a single meeting. However you're husband raised a red flag by refusing to engage. Just comply with them a don't be obstructive. That being said it does sound like you need a bit of support so it might not all be for nothing

Lastly, if you have concerns regards sickness/?minor illness the nhs choices website has some really great advice, including when you should seek advice from GP and what to watch out for for A&E situations.

Imissgmichael · 23/11/2018 00:25

Thing is Abucucat is that the vast majority of 111 staff shouldn’t be offering medical advice as they really aren’t competent or qualified to do so. It follows that she shouldn’t be able to refer to SS off the back of uninformed advise.

WithAllIntenseAndPurposes · 23/11/2018 00:27

What an arrogant prick you sound imiss

abacucat · 23/11/2018 00:36

Imiss Whether they are competent or not isn't the point. As I said there may be very good reasons that parents ignore advice to take a child to A&E. The point is that serious case reviews have shown that this action can also mean that there is serious abuse taking place. SS role is to assess whether there was a good reason, or at least justifiable reason, or whether the parents are trying to hide abuse or are seriously neglectful.

abacucat · 23/11/2018 00:43

So the 111 handler, whatever she was like, would have had no choice but to refer to SS.
It will be standard policy if they advise a parent taking a child to A&E, and the parent says they won't, to refer them to SS. Most referrals will be quickly closed. But some may show serious abuse taking place.

But please OP carry on going to Children's Centre and ring 111 if you need advice.

Alternativefacts · 23/11/2018 00:57

When my first son was a baby 18 years ago I remember a few times calling the GP, sometimes out of hours, for what seemed pretty minor things, and feeling so very grateful that they never made me feel I was wasting their time. As the years go by It is so easy to forget what it feels like in the first few weeks and months - and how the sleep deprivation can make the strongest of us feell out of kilter and anxious for a while. Surely this is all part of finding our feet as new parents, and what we need is people around us who know what it is like and can help us orientate ourselves and grow in confidence in this new role. Haven’t read the whole thread but from the first few pages was a bit shocked at how judgemental many of the comments are. Good luck OP, you will be amazed when you look back in a few months at how quickly you worked out when to worry and when not to. Flowers

wowsertrousers · 23/11/2018 02:46

A tiny baby with a nasty cold is a terrifying thing. My second child caught a horrendous cold at 4 weeks old and after awhile i became concerned that it mighty be something really, genuinely serious. It's not just first-time parent anxiety and i think those entirely dismissing the op's concerns as such are being unkind, though she does sound anxious. In my son's case, the Gp said that while he was v congested and clearly miserable his oxygen levels were normal and she was confident it was just a bad cold but that as babies can deteriorate quickly she booked me an out of hours appt at the hospital for later that evening to reassess. The doc we saw at the hospital also advised just a bad cold so i instinctively apologised for wasting his time but he couldn't have been more emphatic in insisting that he would much rather parents err on the side of caution when babies are involved and that i should absolutely not be apologising and shouldn't think twice about requesting another appt if concerned at any point.

I'm not sure it's helpful to suggest that the OP will soon have worked out when to worry and when not to. The differences between a poorly but ultimately ok baby and a really severely ill baby can be subtle. If in doubt, absolutely call for medical advice.

I'd question whether 111 was the appropriate first port of call though and would also question the refusal to listen to their advise having voluntarily sought it in the first place... but yeah shocking attitude from the lady you spoke to OP, and I'm not surprised you're angry.

That said, personally I'm reassured that callers who ignore advise to take their baby to a and e are reported - it's a huge red flag and while there will be an innocent explanation in the majority of cases (such as your own OP), in other cases it will be because a child is being abused. Just as you are right to call if worried for your baby's welfare, surely they too are right to call SS if similarly worried for your baby's welfare?

chocolatecoveredraisons · 23/11/2018 03:55

I argued with 111 before when the guy in the phone couldn't get a nurse to talk to me about my daughter.
Wanted me to go straight to a and e and wait for 4 hours. I wanted an out of hours appointment as I knew it was an ear infection.
I persisted and told him I wouldn't be going to a and e without an appointment and he shouted at me, misunderstood what I was saying and told me because I had been on a plane 2 weeks previous, my daughter was in danger and her ear drum had burst (no it definitely hadn't)
Finally got an appointment and I still had to wait almost an hour at a &e, the lady who's son had similar problems didn't have an app- she waited 4 hours.

AperolSprizting · 23/11/2018 04:14

I love how people are berating a new Mum for for being potentially delicate in terms of her mental, stunning work there some of you Angry.

Then suggesting she’s wasting people’s time but at the same time suggesting Social Services should be helping with a repeatedly poorly baby whose a poor sleeper - now that would be an astonishing waste of resources!!

I’ve had a couple of experiences with 111 which range from them being wildly unhelpful bordering on ridiculous to the call handler being a massive rude ignorant d*ck! So this doesn’t surprise me.

OP do you have a HV I can’t see where you’ve said or not sorry, I think you should be leaning on them for a bit of 1:1 support - the wider issues you’re describing are what they’re there for. They’ll be able help you access any perinatal mental health support should it be available in your area too. I’d also find out if your GP has an out of hours service where we live now you ring the GP no and if it is out of hrs it goes through to a triage nurse who can offer advice or an out of hrs or emergency app at a member surgery.

I’d also see your GP about your DS seeming constantly ill.

Hope things get easier soon Flowers

User24689 · 23/11/2018 06:52

I think the reason OP is getting a hard time is the 'ss family' comment. Worse still she keeps saying she doesn't need to apologise because she later clarified what she meant. But that clarification was families you hear about with mental health/ alcohol issues ... She doubled down on the offence imo and showed she didnt understand why her original comment was offensive

Diamondsandstones · 23/11/2018 07:10

I agree with upthewolves.
I didn't jump on the op and offered advice BUT I can see why the omg how dare I have SS involvement in a professional with money not a social services type family has got people's backs up . The clarification that only families in poverty, mental health and drugs are social services families made it worse.

As I've said I grew up with parents who fostered. Some of the worst abuse cases came from comfortable homes.

Diamondsandstones · 23/11/2018 07:10

*I'm

TheDarkPassenger · 23/11/2018 07:49

They’d have been rung eventually anyway tbh, using a&e at that rate with a cold sets alarm bells.

They’re not marching in to take your baby, just cooperate.
And I don’t mean to alarm you but if they’ve taken it this far the SS obviously has concerns because we had something happen in my sons life where the go warned us they have to contact social services as it’s protocol in these cases... social worker rang for a quick chat about it and discharged us.. took about 8 mins. COOPERATE

YouCouldBeMe · 23/11/2018 07:52

OP there's some good advice so focus on that

JustDanceAddict · 23/11/2018 08:03

That’s awful re the nhs direct woman but they are incredibly over-cautious (although one did get me an emergency GP appt for DS when my calling did nothing) . As someone else said upthread, get a transcript of the call and try that way.

However, saying you’re not anSS family is a terrible thing to say. Being involved with SS is not all about abusive parents if that’s what you’re implying. There is certainly no need to feel ashamed - maybe they can help with sleep issues at the centre.

Ninoo25 · 23/11/2018 08:14

Tbh this is why I hardly ever contact 111 anymore. Every time I’ve phoned they’ve told me they’re going to send an ambulance or that I should go to A&E for every little thing. I’m asthmatic and one of the questions is something like ‘are you having any difficulty breathing’ and I always say yes, but I’m an asthmatic and have a chest infection, I don’t think it’s serious enough for A&E/ambulance. Can you please make an appointment with me with the GP on call? (To get steroids -this ALWAYS works for me). They’re usually ok with this but probably it is because I’m an adult making a decision about myself.
111 was set up with really good intentions, but seems to have become more and more about covering their own arses and referring everyone to A&E!

discopisco · 23/11/2018 08:43

Thank you for all the genuine, advice, empathy and guidance shown by some of you.

Just to reiterate:

A) I did not refuse to take the baby to A&E- since the 111 person said he wasn't an emergency, I said I would see how he got on and would take action if I was still concerned. I then took him to A&E an hour or two later just to get checked out. For those of you who think I'm wasting NHS resources- rtft ffs.

B) I didn't call the GP/111 wringing my hands at him having just a cold- I knew he did- it was the associated symptoms I wanted advise on- the disordered breathing, the wheeze in every breath, etc. I'm not a complete idiot as some of you are assuming I am.

C) I wouldn't have minded a SS referral if it was justified. This one wasn't. As I said, I'd have completely understood if my neighbour had reported me (from hearing the baby crying most of the time) than this lady who ignored what I had said and instead of listening to me (that I would take the baby if he got worse), jumped the gun and reported me. She could have added notes for the duty GP to tell her what had happened. If the GP then shared her views, then to have made the referral.

D) I don't have PND (yet- will look into this and if I do, get the help I need) but I am anxious. That comes from knowing about situations where very young children became very poorly very quickly with life-long implications as a result of their illnesses. Some of the posters have also shared their harrowing experiences of this happening, therefore I believe that anxiety is justified.

E) Getting a child seen by a medical professional when you have valid concerns about their health is not wasting NHS resources. In this case, once she'd told me baby wasn't an emergency, I didn't want to 'waste' any more recourses- she then penalised me for that!

Anyway, I've said what I've had to. I've actioned genuine advice and am now bowing out of this thread.

OP posts:
AJPTaylor · 23/11/2018 08:44

I am sorry this has happened.
You don't need to debate about what was said. You and dh are professionals so view this with your professional head. Ask for a copy of the call. I assume you can do a DSAR to a govt service. Check and do it.
Then follow the formal complaints route.
Meantime engage with SS. They need to satisfy themselves that baby is not at harm. It will take minutes.

CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 23/11/2018 08:45

@raisons.

I argued with 111 before when the guy in the phone couldn't get a nurse to talk to me about my daughter. Wanted me to go straight to a and e and wait for 4 hours. I wanted an out of hours appointment as I knew it was an ear infection. I persisted and told him I wouldn't be going to a and e without an appointment and he shouted at me, misunderstood what I was saying and told me because I had been on a plane 2 weeks previous, my daughter was in danger and her ear drum had burst (no it definitely hadn't)

But you are not medically trained, and if you knew what was wrong with your child without it been seen, why did't you wait for a GP appointment the next morning for treatment. An ear infection is neither an accident nor emergency!

@Imissgmichael We can all write our opinions. We don;t need someone going through each post deciding what we can write or not.
The 'milk allergy' at 1 week, the numerous 111 AND a&e attendances, Phoning when her DH is not available, unable to know what grunting is etc etc. Red flags to me.

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