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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Females have to consider risk, far more than males?

188 replies

Huskylover1 · 19/11/2018 11:32

It's suddenly hit me, how DH and I have vastly different experiences of life, even though we live in the same place and go to the same places (obviously).

After a conversation, it has occurred to me, that I have been risk assessing most of what I do, for my entire adult life. DH says I worry too much, whereas I just say that I'm sensible!

For example, when I walk the dogs at night, I stick to well lit areas. If I have to park in a car park at night, I park near the exit and where it's well lit. I wouldn't answer the door at 3am, if I was home alone. If I was walking home in the dark, I would take a well lit route, and never cut across a dark park or in the woods. You get my drift.

DH wouldn't think about any of this. He goes where he wants, when he wants, without any thoughts to safety. He's a very big man, and I'd say if another man set on him, it would be extremely unlikely that DH would not win. He knows how to fight (trained fighting is part of his job). He just isn't scared of anything or anyone.

We were talking one night, and I remarked at how absolutely lovely it must be, to be like him : never having to fear anything. He replied that I was just a worrier and he didn't seem to get my point at all. I really don't think I am a worrier. I think that females have to think about things that men don't. I think I've risk assessed my whole adult life, often without even realising.

He didn't seem to understand my point at all. Confused

OP posts:
PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 19/11/2018 12:59

All part of toxic masculinity though, none of which is the fault of women.

But plenty of women do feed into the toxic masculinity culture, to say so otherwise is completely disingenuous. Desirable traits in a man often include concepts such as handsomeness, being driven, confidence, assertiveness, virility, manliness, vigour, strength, muscularity, ruggedness, toughness, robustness, a provider and protector. I'm generalising of course but most men are brought up in a culture that sees those traits as being desirable characteristics that women find attractive. A woman who mocks vulnerability or weakness in man is as much responsible for imposing oppressive norms of toxic masculinity onto men as other men are.

I spent years working in pubs and clubs either in bar staff capacity and at times security and I would wince when I overhead the words 'what are you going to do about it' i.e. I want you to go and hit him. It would seem having a word with security or the police was not an option, the boyfriend in question had to demonstrate his alpha male credentials to his partner or risk losing face to her. It would be great if men could just walk away from such situations without loss of face but that's not going to happen soon sadly. I studied jujitsu to a decent level and the number one thing we were taught was 'not to be there' and I have walked away from a confrontation plenty of times only to hear mocking from both men and women for my perceived cowardliness. I did not give a shit and me waking up 100% intact the next day and not in a hospital bed was a win for me as for as I was concerned. Toxic masculinity is very real but please don't say it is just men who reinforce it.

brilliotic · 19/11/2018 13:00

I believe the statistics are clear that outside the home, men are by far more at risk than women. They are much less at risk of being sexually assaulted, but even counting (known) sexual assaults and rapes, overall men are still more at risk. And they are hugely more at risk of being killed.
Inside the home, the stats are completely different.

So why do the majority of women 'risk assess' whenever they go out, but only the minority of men? It seems that objectively, men should be more worried when out and about. It seems that women should mostly be wary of close family members and friends.

I think a possible explanation could be found in a general victim blaming culture that applies only to women. Women learn, and everybody agrees, that they are responsible for keeping themselves safe. So when they get assaulted, there will be some reason why it was (in part) their fault - e.g. shouldn't have gone down that alleyway. Whereas when a man gets assaulted, the blame is put squarely on the assaulter/s (where it belongs).

I am not saying we should all start behaving 'irresponsibly' - from an individual perspective, it makes sense to avoid unnecessary danger.

But we should not be held responsible for the actions of someone against us, just because we didn't take the sensible precautions. Just like men aren't usually held responsible for being stabbed, even if the stabbing happened outside a pub.

Nor am I saying that men, objectively more in danger when out and about than women, should become more like women and do more risk assessing and behave more 'responsibly' by avoiding dangerous situations. Though yes, that might reduce the number of victims. But it would be a sad admittance of defeat: The non-perpetrators (male and female) should all adjust their behaviour to match the majority female current status of constantly risk assessing and being aware, in order to avoid becoming victims, whilst the perpetrators continue as they are.

No, in order to reduce violence (against men AND women), the perpetrators of violence need to stop perpetrating violence. The blame for violence must be on the violent person's shoulder and nowhere else.

Unfortunately male violence (on women and on men) is just a part of our toxic masculinity. It is way to accepted as something that men just do.
Unfortunately women alone cannot stop toxic masculinity.
And that is where male awareness comes in. I think men need to become more aware of the real objective risk of violence they are in every time they go out. Not so they start being more careful and 'responsible' - but so that they start contributing to a change in perceptions that will make male violence unacceptable rather than the norm.

But, sadly, both men and women falsely believe that women are in danger whenever they go out, and men are not. This suits men, violent or not - it restricts women, even if only by occupying their head space. Most of all it suits violent men. They can just continue as they are, and non-violent men never become aware of the need for change until they are randomly stabbed by strangers on the street and are dead, and no-one makes the connection with systemic toxic masculinity, instead it is just a matter of 'oh dear, wrong time wrong place' and the perpetrator is seen as a crazy exception rather than the result of general social attitudes that include that men just are violent and women are responsible for keeping themselves safe.

So, educate your men, old and young, that it is them that are most unsafe out and about. Then they might have an incentive to change things.
It is only by changing attitudes towards male violence that this can change.

MissWilmottsGhost · 19/11/2018 13:00

If a man is randomly attacked on the way home at night no one says it was his own fault for being out on his own at night, or that he was asking for it because of the clothes he was wearing etc.

Women have to prove they did everything they could to prevent being attacked otherwise it is their own fault, and that is some thing that men really don't experience.

JessieMcJessie · 19/11/2018 13:01

I do agree with you to a certain extent OP, and I find it very odd that your DH says on the one hand you should not worry, but on the other hand that you should not do the same things that he does because it’s too dangerous! It’s almost like he is saying that you should not bother your pretty little head thinking about the dangers because he can do that for you. Much like the PP who talked about getting London night buses on her own, I think that society has to be careful not to get into a mindset that women are so inherently vulnerable that they can’t do things independently. I remember taking some long bus rides in Spain in broad daylight when’s i was about 20 and the number of people who said things like “Ooh, you’re doing that all alone, is that a good idea?” was ridiculous. I have known women who would not go on a solo business trip to an unfamiliar U.K. city because of fear of not knowing what to do on arrival, or women who are too scared to drive by themselves on the motorway. Of course, everyone should understand basic steps to take to maximise their personal safety, but I think that some of the stuff in that HuffPost list is ridiculous- not sleeping naked for fear of an intruder or onlooker?! For goodness sake. I lock my doors and windows and close my curtains to prevent these things, I don’t need to go to bed in a onesie just in case they breach my defences. Some sense of proportion is needed.

abacucat · 19/11/2018 13:01

Men's risk of being attacked/murdered goes way down when they get married.
The average male victim is young, drunk or tipsy, and been to a nightclub or late night drinking place. Most are as a result of fights. Sometimes a man is randomly attacked making his way home from a nightclub.
But men are less likely than women to get attacked during the day, or at night when it is dark in an ordinary street or park.

Men's risk of getting murdered goes way down when they get married, women's goes way up. Men most at risk of being murdered are those that go to nightclubs, women most at risk of being murdered are those who are married or cohabiting with a man.

StaySafe · 19/11/2018 13:02

You would never get me in the woods alone at night.
I think it is probably a safer place to be than on a quiet road near a housing estate. Although it may feel scary the chances of some violent pervert sitting in the woods waiting for a lone woman to come along is pretty remote.

Spaghettijumper · 19/11/2018 13:03

While I see what you're saying PanGalactic, I hope you can see that telling a man to punch another man, or even being the man punching that other man, isn't anywhere near the same situation as being dragged off the street and raped? At least in the fight situation there is an element of choice - the man can choose not to punch the other man, or the man being punched could have chosen not to sexually assault the woman in the first place.

NRPDad · 19/11/2018 13:03

I'm probably a lot smaller than your DH and I certainly don't know how to fight (never been in one!)

I agree with your post, there is a definite difference but men do worry too! I grew up in a rough estate and went to different secondary school than the local kids. I was constantly watching my back. Into adulthood if I'm walking along dark streets I'm always wary about being mugged. Where I live (Cambridge) I wouldn't say there is heaps of violent crime but if I saw a group of hooded older youths on my side of the street when it was dark I'd probably move to the other side for fear of getting mugged.

I haven't looked at statistics but I feel like men are far more likely to get mugged (i.e. give me your phone or we're gonna beat you up or stab you) than women? Anecdotally the only people I know who have been mugged in my life are all male. Certainly it appears that the majority of stabbings - whether gang related or the ones where there is no clear reason why they were targeted - are typically males? I'd like to think many muggers (predominantly male) might avoid women whereas a single bloke on his own is fair game for threatening and assaulting?

Saying that, I imagine it must be a tough extra burden for women to be thinking about potential sexual assault and just general creeps who like to follow, cat call etc. It seems like acid attacks (random or premeditated) are often focused on women too.

MissWilmottsGhost · 19/11/2018 13:04

Crosspost with brillotic

It is the fact that women get blamed that makes us more careful, rather than the actual risk.

AnotherClone · 19/11/2018 13:05

If a man is randomly attacked on the way home at night no one says it was his own fault for being out on his own at night, or that he was asking for it because of the clothes he was wearing etc

If my DH went out and got drunk and was attacked on the way home - of course the only people who would be at fault would be the ones who attacked him - but I still make him promose to get a taxi home and not to drink too much as I want to lessen the chance of him being vulnerable to attack. He would encourage me to do the same.

Spaghettijumper · 19/11/2018 13:05

Very well said @brilliotic.

Want2bSupermum · 19/11/2018 13:06

This isn't so much about male privilege as it is about sexism. As a woman in the workplace I have experience women being so much more risk adverse than men. IMO the reason for this difference in risk appetite is mainly based in gender bias with girls being expected to confirm to a much less riskier environment than boys. The result is that women aren't interested in taking risks in their career in terms of going after promotions or taking as much risk in business decisions. Owners want board members who have an appetite for risk. It's only when you take on risk, manage it and make it work that you make higher returns. The bias of risk taking is a very big reason behind there being so few women in senior management and board positions outside of the government.

bigKiteFlying · 19/11/2018 13:06

IME I found men who don't get it suddenly do:

  1. if they are attacked and end up feeling vunerable (Friend)
  2. they have a daughter and she gets to an age when she starts to go out by herself (DH)
  3. they became less phycically imposing through illness or age and become aware of this ( Friend and FIL)

At least that's what I've seen - they've tended to be quite dismissive prior to this even when women they know have talked about it.

MittensForKittens123 · 19/11/2018 13:08

I am holiday with DP in India at the moment, and we have been hassled a lot in the street (mostly people wanting to sell us things) I have found it a lot easier than he has to disengage with them - it took me a few days to realise that he has never had the experience of having unwanted attention in the street before, something that as women we are far too accustomed to.

AngryAttackKittens · 19/11/2018 13:08

Also if a man gets stabbed the public response/lawyer's summation in court won't be "well yes but look what he was wearing" with the implication being that it was his fault that he was attacked.

BruegeITheElder · 19/11/2018 13:08

I haven't looked at statistics but I feel like men are far more likely to get mugged (i.e. give me your phone or we're gonna beat you up or stab you) than women? Anecdotally the only people I know who have been mugged in my life are all male

The ONS says women and men are equally likely to be victims of personal robbery.

Echobelly · 19/11/2018 13:09

It's certainly the case, I think, that if a woman gets attacked in any way, sexual or not, at night, the question gets asked: 'What was she doing out there alone?' And it doesn't get asked of a bloke in the same position, because men are entitled to be out alone and women apparently aren't because that's 'being careless' somehow.

It all smacks of a rather Victorian 'women ought to be chaperoned' attitude.

Spaghettijumper · 19/11/2018 13:11

If my DH went out and got drunk and was attacked on the way home - of course the only people who would be at fault would be the ones who attacked him - but I still make him promose to get a taxi home and not to drink too much as I want to lessen the chance of him being vulnerable to attack. He would encourage me to do the same.

Yes, but if you got raped, there is every chance that you would be questioned on your past sexual history in court - it may even happen that your underwear is held up for everyone to see, to prove that you wanted it. At no point would your husband be humiliated by the court system for being beaten up - it just doesn't happen. The main defence in cases of sexual violence is that the victim wanted to be treated like a piece of meat and, a lot of the time, juries agree.

BlooperReel · 19/11/2018 13:13

My DH is very aware of the risks to females, he knows, and readily admits that there are violent, perverted, rapists and attackers out there, he is also very aware of the risk of being attacked by a gang for my bag/phone whatever, and always encourages me to get a taxi etc, he rarely actually goes to bed when I am out late until I get home, he said the worry is too much for him to sleep until he knows I am home safe.

I have been stalked, had an attempted sexual assault, and narrowly avoided a few muggings, so I get why he feels like this too. Some men do get it OP, despite the fact he is way bigger than me and can more than handle himself.

ShatnersWig · 19/11/2018 13:13

If I have to park in a car park at night, I park near the exit and where it's well lit. I wouldn't answer the door at 3am, if I was home alone. If I was walking home in the dark, I would take a well lit route, and never cut across a dark park or in the woods.

I'm a man and I would do the same as you, OP. So I think your DH is a twat not understanding.

ShotsFired · 19/11/2018 13:13

I read this article some months ago in slack-jawed horror.

www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2018/14/Yomi-Adegoke-man-chases-woman-in-alley-because-she-ran-away

Spaghettijumper · 19/11/2018 13:15

^It's certainly the case, I think, that if a woman gets attacked in any way, sexual or not, at night, the question gets asked: 'What was she doing out there alone?' And it doesn't get asked of a bloke in the same position, because men are entitled to be out alone and women apparently aren't because that's 'being careless' somehow.

It all smacks of a rather Victorian 'women ought to be chaperoned' attitude.^

I agree but again I think it's something more. In rape cases, what you see is the attitude that men will do whatever they can to get sex from a woman, so women need to protect themselves from that. If a woman fails to protect herself, by walking outside at night, or wearing a skirt, then what can she expect? She knows what men are like, she didn't take precautions so therefore she must have been foolish or she must have wanted it. How is it possible that in 2018 walking down a street is considered dangerous behaviour??

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 19/11/2018 13:16

The increased violence against men that makes them statistically "more likely" to be a victim of assault is a result of arguments between men, often when they're drunk. That's not "random" I'm afraid.

One of the big fears that myself and many of my peer group had in our 20s was being 'jumped', which meant being taken by surprise by usually two or more assailants who just wanted to kick the crap out of you 'for a laugh'. That is what happened to me when I got jumped and beaten up when I was student, not interested in my wallet, just wanted to inflict some hurt on some passer by who unfortunately happened to be me. Another time a car load of lads piled out of their motor and gave chase to me for the crime of waiting at a bus stop. Thankfully I managed to outrun them all but it took me ages to walk home as I had to take a roundabout route home to avoid the main roads. Most of my friends have been 'jumped' at some point, its fucking terrifying.

Spaghettijumper · 19/11/2018 13:19

I know a few men who've been 'jumped' too Pan - it's really horrible. But no one would have ever suggested to you that you shouldn't walk down the street because of it (even if that was a choice you made yourself) - my husband certainly never even considered changing his behaviour after he was jumped. He just considered it to be one of those (awful) things. The key difference is the fact that women are explicitly told, even by police forces, not to do certain things - here are some typical examples: www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarren/we-asked-an-expert-what-was-wrong-with-these-anti-rape-poste

AngryAttackKittens · 19/11/2018 13:19

Oh, I remember that, Shots, and I also remember all the women on Twitter telling him "if you run at her at night in an alleyway of course she's going to be terrified you stupid arsehole".