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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

999 replies

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 07:36

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

  1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
  2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
  3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

OP posts:
NewDayBlankPage · 17/11/2018 07:40

I personally agree with everything you’ve said and like you I think self ID is the big problem.

Trills · 17/11/2018 07:49

YABU to think that you will get a respectful debate here, no matter what your intentions are.

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 07:52

YABU to think that you will get a respectful debate here, no matter what your intentions are.

Probably true :-)

Although I saw it the past couple of days so I live in hope !

OP posts:
ThatssomebadhatHarry · 17/11/2018 07:52

I think some women feel betrayed by the transwoman society. It was women who supported transwomen the most.

Then some transwomen started saying women’s issues don’t matter if these issues stem from biological sex etc.. They also said womens rights to safety don’t matter.

They stole sports awards from women who couldn’t compete physically with a male born physiology and said we were bigots if we disagreed.

It feels like the wolf in sheepskin we let in the door is now eating us alive.

MaisyPops · 17/11/2018 07:52

Fair post and probably what many people off MN (& many on) would agree to.

OhHolyJesus · 17/11/2018 07:53

I agree with some of this OP. I'm appalled that the debate is being hijacked by a small group of aggressive people.

The big red flag for me is predators using it for their benefit and the safety of children. I want safe spaces for women and I detest the use of language such as cervix Hager's or pregnant people. I prefer to deal with facts and science than feelings in general in all arguments as I find feelings harder to argue with!

As a transwoman can you tell me why /if you think it's not the same as being a transman and how transitioning from female to male is different? There seems to be much less representation in the debate, as far as I've seen.

I'm also really concerned about the age that children are receiving medical treatment and how this has become a real to me since ITV's butterfly and the Jackie Green story. I'd like to know your thoughts on that.

peachsquish · 17/11/2018 07:55

I agree with you

calpop · 17/11/2018 07:55

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrom is an intersex condition, nothing to to with transgenderism. I think that respectful debate is under threat because of the TRA tactics. I previously has zero issues with trans people. Now they have exposed the underbelly of fetishism, paedophillia, furies, exhibitionism etc is has made it so much harder I think, even though these people are clearly a small minority of wrong'uns.

Weetabixandshreddies · 17/11/2018 07:56

OP I was on the thread that you referred to and I was very interested in what you had to say. I hope that this thread continues the respectful discussion because I would like to hear more from you.

AlpacaLypse · 17/11/2018 07:58

I absolutely agree with you OP. So many threads get derailed!

I first became aware of this issue in a big way when it started to impact on women's sport. Where do we think the lines should be drawn in any competitive activity where an average female would be at a physical disadvantage compared with an average male?

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 08:00

As a transwoman can you tell me why /if you think it's not the same as being a transman and how transitioning from female to male is different? There seems to be much less representation in the debate, as far as I've seen.

From a trans perspective it is no different. The disparity comes from the fact that trans men aren't perceived (quite rightly) as anywhere near the same threat to men as trans women are to women.

OP posts:
Sexnotgender · 17/11/2018 08:01

I was most definitely an ally to transsexual women previously. As I’m sure the majority of women were.

In general women are kind and accommodating.

This kindness has been destroyed by the new wave of entitled TRAs.

I am no longer an ally. I will actively campaign against anyone born male being allowed in women’s spaces.

The relationship between transsexuals and women has been damaged and it is desperately sad. Until women as a class are protected properly though it will remain damaged.

StepAwayFromGoogle · 17/11/2018 08:02

OP, that's a brilliant post. I have some questions that I'd really like to ask but have been too afraid to do so. Do you mind if I post them here? You can feel free to tell me to sod off if I accidentally offend, I genuinely have no intention of doing so.

sackrifice · 17/11/2018 08:03

The disparity comes from the fact that trans men aren't perceived (quite rightly) as anywhere near the same threat to men as trans women are to women.

And why would that be?

ToastyFingers · 17/11/2018 08:04

I agree with a lot of what you've said.
The old-school 'honour system' where transsexual women were accepted as women because we were able to trust that everyone would behave acceptably is no longer sustainable, and for you and many others in that position, I'm really sorry.

I don't know any trans people irl who are in favour of self ID, but I tend to only associate with quite reasonable people.

One thing though, androgen insensitivity causes a feminised appearance in men who have it, it isn't really anything to do with GD.

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 08:04

"Where do we think the lines should be drawn in any competitive activity where an average female would be at a physical disadvantage compared with an average male?"

I am personally against this situation.

For some sports it doesn't matter however the effect of testosterone has a big impact in muscular development and therefore clearly does provide competitive advantage.

The best solution I can come up with, and it isn't ideal, is that to complete as a transwoman in womens sports you must have had testosterone and oestrogen levels to be that of a natal female for at least 6 months.

OP posts:
Sexnotgender · 17/11/2018 08:05

And why would that be?

Because 98% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by males.

Violent crimes are perpetrated overwhelmingly by males.

catgirl1976 · 17/11/2018 08:05

I agree with much of what you have said and I feel very sorry for "genuine" transexuals (people with gender dysphoria just trying to live their lives) who have been dragged under the 'transgender' umbrella and the aggressive MRA / TRA agenda.

Self-id and the TRA agenda is a disaster for women, children, LGB and for transexuals.

wrexhamtrans · 17/11/2018 08:06

@StepAwayFromGoogle

Please do ask. More that happy to answer any questions I can.

OP posts:
clarinsgirl · 17/11/2018 08:06

I agree broadly with what you say OP. You raise the interesting point that not only does the current TRA agenda threaten women's rights but it also threatens the rights of the 'ordinary' trans community. It is also my view that the current movement is deeply homophonic.

Genuine trans right are harmonious with women's and gay rights. Unfortunately reasonable debate is shut down in wider society and the voice of the 'ordinary' trans is so small that the fight has become polarised between women and the crazy new breed of so called trans who are just the latest incarnation of misogynists.

Sexnotgender · 17/11/2018 08:07

Totally agree clarinsgirl.

TRAs are frankly just MRAs.

PetraDelphiki · 17/11/2018 08:08

OP can I ask your feelings on transsexual women in sport? What restrictions would you apply on born makes competing against born females?

LauraMipsum · 17/11/2018 08:08

I agree with you OP.

DirtyNell · 17/11/2018 08:08

So the problem is with Stonewall, and the transgender activists. Are you talking to them?
We know that people and organisations will end up being sued by the very trigger happy TRAs, when they dare to question atrans-women on whether they have had a gender reassignment. So the only stand women can now take is No Men.
And I will always regard anyone born a man, who competes in women’s sports, as a cheat.

PetraDelphiki · 17/11/2018 08:08

Born males!!! Stupid autocorrect!