AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Wrex can you share some details about what "chemical castration" actually is?

I've heard it a few times on here - surely no clinic is prescribing bromide in your cuppa?

The debate is not black and white, as we are witnessing on this thread. There are many layers to the debate. There is a difference between late onset dysphoria and teens and children experiencing dysphoria. IMO an obvious disparity between cross dressing for sexual kicks and a transsexual.

I work with teenagers so am fully supportive of what they say. One has been diagnosed with dysphoria and says they 'knew since age 10. They have been referred to GIDS by camhs and have a 14 month wait! I showed them a photo of Danielle Muscato and they said 'Well he's clearly taking the piss'. The teens experience of gender dysphoria is so far removed for older men with late onset it is not comparable.

I've been called transphobic on Twitter for even supporting dysphoria as TRA say it's hugely offensive to say Trans people have mental health problems. Hence the passion for self ID. No longer dysphoria or hatred of the perceived opposite sexs body, just an innate feeling/faith that we must all acknowledge and appease.

I personally do support the transsexual community. I do support people with dysphoria. Cross dressers and self ID can do what they want but not in spaces segregated by sex!

Wrexhamtrans, maybe I was too waffly but I did ask you a question that I'd really like to know the answer to, do you recognise that not everyone has a gender identity?

We could have a show of hands - who here does/doesn't? I don't.

can you share some details about what "chemical castration" actually is?

For trans women undergoing HRT there are always two sets of meds ...... the suppression of male hormones and the provision of female hormones.

The suppression of male hormones essentially is bromide in the cuppa! They are referred to as anti androgens.

Wrexhamtrans, maybe I was too waffly but I did ask you a question that I'd really like to know the answer to, do you recognise that not everyone has a gender identity?

Yes, I do recognise that there is a wide variance and some people just don't fit at all.

One key difference to note. A few women have posted about not really conforming to a female gender identity but the important point is they don't actively hate it and it doesn't damage their mental health.

May I pick up on the sex vs gender issue?

I have been thinking that sex is a biological fact (I appreciate that there are some extreme exceptions) and this could be the basis for some rights, such as women-only refuges, women's prisons, membership of women's working groups etc.

Gender is a social construct and a choice of identity. This could be the basis for other rights, such as choice of pronouns, membership of female working groups etc.

Would this work?

Windy

No. Gender is bullshit. We’d be better off outlawing it altogether (I KNOW this is pie in the sky) rather than further entrenching it in law.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man.

This is the heart of it and it is so sad.

Wrex, a majority of people on MN will agree with your sentiments regarding transsexuals vs trans umbrella and activism and so on. Unfortunately a lot of them won’t even open this thread any more because the debate is considered so toxic.

We have to keep saying sex is not gender and biology is important because as women the root of our oppression is as a sex class, the class that bears babies. Your oppression as trans is different to ours, not the same. Not less important- that’s not how rights work - but different. Ours is sex-based, yours is gender based. Feminists have been saying gender is toxic to society for ages.

I wish you all the very best.

When it comes to enforced gender. Yes I hate it. And that is possibly why I react badly to trans people who respect gender. And I am not too fond of my body either. Slim with huge boobs. Hideous. Physically restricting. Yes it has negatively affected my mental health, especially in my teens and twenties

I am lucky in that I have learned to cope. To recognise society is wrong, not me. But this whole transwoemn are women aggression from the tra people has had an effect that gets my husband worried at times , that saw me sobbing myself to sleep about 2 nights ago ( grief glad this is anonymous)

Windy, not sure what you mean by female working groups? For example if women's rights groups are no longer allowed to talk about female biology issues because some men get pregnant/have periods and it's exclusionary of transwomen members, that's materially diluted the purpose of the group existing in the first place.

Gender is bullshit.

In an ideal world I actually agree. Everyone could be who they are and the contents of your underwear is irrelevant. I could wear make up and carry a handbag and no one would care. Men could wear dresses and not be ridiculed.

Unfortunately until such a time exists there will always be transsexual people. At the end of the day I couldn't have gender dysphoria if we could eliminate gender stereotyping.

No. Gender is bullshit.

On what basis do you mean that SmileEachDay ? Do you mean it's bullshit because it's a social construct?

Isn't it better for a child to embrace their 'masculine' preferences but know that this doesn't mean they aren't a girl?

important point is they don't actively hate it and it doesn't damage their mental health.

How do you know this?

I hated being told what I should do as a girl, and then as a woman. It affected my physical and mental health, you have no idea what women go through if they do not bow down to what men want them to do. It made me fight harder to prove that women could do things that were not expected of them, and do them better. Being a woman didn't stop me engineering all over the place, to kick against the pricks trying to keep me in my box.

And you think that this is easy for us?

windy I mean that stereotypical male or female gendered behaviours are bullshit.

Pink is a colour, not a girl colour. Girls can play with the normal Lego not just the pink stuff. Boys can play dress up or kitchens or dolls. None of it has a bearing on te sex of the child.

Then extrapolate that for adults.

Windy, not sure what you mean by female working groups?

I was thinking about political parties that currently have women's working groups led by someone who identifies as a woman but who is biologically male. Political parties, student unions etc. would have to choose whether to use "women" or "female" and it would be a transparent, clear choice.

Indeed wrex - working to rid the world of damaging gender contructs should be a priority.

"And you think that this is easy for us?"

Absolutely not and the points you raise are different to what I was answering.

I was looking at a more superficial level.

I was looking at a more superficial level.

There is no superficial level when being female.

SmileEachDay I agree with that definition - it's something society has created (and we all know that at other times pink was seen as masculine).

But it's here and I would prefer girls to know that they can favour masculine traits but that they are still female and they don't need to become male.

catkind writing the above has helped me be clearer with my thinking. I think my choice of "female working groups" was mistaken. It should be girl/woman/female for sex and feminine for gender..?

No longer dysphoria or hatred of the perceived opposite sexs body, just an innate feeling/faith that we must all acknowledge and appease.

Interesting to see Jane Fae using the dysphoria / health condition argument the other day against the transage bloke. This would go directly against the trans umbrella & the push for demedicalisation.

Wrex I apologise for asking a question you have probably already asked umpteen times. When you said, "At the end of the day I couldn't have gender dysphoria if we could eliminate gender stereotyping." it made me wonder whether it's being male that's wrong for you or being masculine?

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.

That compromise is no female only spaces, sports and organisations.

Even if this seems acceptable to many, how is it possible to allow certain male transpeople in and exclude all male people under the trans umbrella?

But it's here and I would prefer girls to know that they can favour masculine traits but that they are still female and they don't need to become male.

Yes. If transsexuals really want to debunk gender, they'll be going with Miranda Yardley's "I am a man" attitude.

I used to have a lot of respect for Eddie Izzard's "My dresses are man's dresses because I bought them" view. It was such a shame when he switched to saying that he liked heels & lipstick because of having girl genes.

From the many threads I have read on MN about this subject, it seems to me that the main concerns are over women-only spaces, and to a lesser extent, competitive sport. Self-ID can be used as a perverts charter for men to invade changing rooms in particular, but also places such as the women's only swimming pond on Hampstead Heath.

Hi wrex

I was on the other thread for a bit and i agree with your OP, though probably not everything youve said

Just thought id lurk for a bit

Apart from one thing...