AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

You are going to derail this brilliant thread if you carry on being inflammatory

People are entitled to express their opinion

It will only derail the thread if people argue as opposed to ignore/politely state their own view

You sound lovely OP and wish I could chat through all this in person over a wine or a cuppa we would not always agree but it could be a reasoned, calm discussion and I truly appreciate hearing some of this 'from the horses mouth'. I can't experience what you have any more than as a white woman I could walk in the shoes of a black woman growing up. I truly believe that to understand we should listen to each other and I really hope this doesn't turn into a bun fight. If it does I am not belittling anyone's comments as I believe in free speech but I think many MNetters are angry and scared but you as an individual don't belong in the group that made us angry and scared.

Anyway - another question, perhaps a tangent but as you referred to cross dressers and people who get a kick out of being under the trans umbrella, how do you feel about non-binary or benign gender fluid? For me this is a step too far, I don't agree with you in that you can be born in the wrong body (but I have never felt that I have so I don't know how that feels) but being non binary just isn't one thing or the other is it? It confuses me but that's because I don't understand it.

I have so many question, maybe this should have been an Ask Me Anything thread! There was a transman one which I posted on but the OP disappeared 😕

Thanks, Wrex - I get it now about the anti-androgens and oestrogen.

I'll ask a question - please don't feel like you need to answer!

What effect does that have on you? Does the medication reduce sexual urge, affect erectile strength, affect orgasm?

One key difference to note. A few women have posted about not really conforming to a female gender identity but the important point is they don't actively hate it and it doesn't damage their mental health.

I think you may be confusing two things here. Not conforming to stereotypes - who does 100%? And not having a gender identity, a feeling in your head that says you belong to one gender or other. I don't hate my gender identity or conform to it, I don't have one to hate or conform to. My little voice in my head just says I'm a me. Biology is the reason I think I'm female. If biology is no longer the definition of female I'm not sure where that leaves me and the thousands (millions? majority?) like me.

Or do you not actually have an internal feeling of gender either and you just picked a team based on your stereotype preferences - the idea of being masculine distresses you so you must be a woman? The idea of being feminine would be very distressing to me too, but I have the option of just not doing it. Perhaps that's easier for women, or rather the worst of the battle has already been had. Women wearing trousers is mainstream now, when are we going to have the fight for men wearing dresses to become mainstream? Never if all the dress wearing men decide they're women

Viv/OP

Given the nature of your questions I want to remind the OP of the entirely open nature of the forum and the fact that a link to this thread is on Twitter.

wrexhamtrans what was your timeline of transitioning? You say you knew from a very young age.

Also what psychological treatment have you had for the dysphoria? Do you believe dysphoria can be cured?

Transwomen should never be allowed to compete in women’s sports. The testosterone level is almost the least important issue. Men have bigger lungs, higher cardiac output, higher proportion of muscle to fat, broader shoulder girdles, narrower pelvises, higher bone density, higher oxygen capacity... these things do NOT alter when the man takes hormones or says he identifies as a woman.
In contact sports there is a real risk of his female opponents suffering serious injury (has already happened), and in all sports the male bodied trans competitors simply break records and make it impossible for female athletes to compete. We would face the destruction of women’s sport if we allowed transgender people in.
The answer is for trans athletes to stop invading women’s sport and start organising a trans Olympics of their own - akin to the Paralympics.

I think we need to separate gender dysphoria from body dysphoria. Someone could have either, or both. And to differing degrees.

And the causes of body dysphoria could be innate, or driven by external issues (society).

There are zero criteria that will allow a male access to me and my daughter in a space created for our privacy with our own sex.

And no matter how many times men chat ever so reasonably amongst themselves about which of them deserves access to females most, or what the most compelling change they can each make to themselves to win the prize of COMPLETELY OVERRIDING WOMEN'S CONSENT WITHOUT CHALLENGE, I will continue to refuse.

You do not have the consent of women, you do not have the consent of girls. Respect us and stop trying to negotiate away our rights.
Create unisex spaces where any woman who either doesn't care about her own sex based rights, or wishes to validate you, can share with you WITHOUT you both destroying the right to same sex segregation for ALL women.

Consent matters. I will NEVER give consent to being naked or vulnerable with any male stranger, and I will defend my daughter's consent on her behalf until she can give or refuse it herself.

HARD REFUSAL. NO.

What effect does that have on you? Does the medication reduce sexual urge, affect erectile strength, affect orgasm?

I have no problem answering these (anonymously)!

I have no sexual urge at all. Libido is zero.

My penis has shrunk to about an inch and I am incapable of erection.

I haven't had an orgasm for so long I'm not sure if I am capable or not. I certainly have no interest in trying.

I do thing it's important to note you aren't piling Oestrogen on top of Testosterone....the Testosterone is suppressed and that makes a huge difference.

Respect us and stop trying to negotiate away our rights.

I do not represent TRAs. I am against taking any rights away from women. Not all trans people are the same.

I'm not sure there is a solution to all of this but debate is good. First we should ensure that we do no harm!

TAs harm women by insisting that lowered T levels are the only issue. They're not. It doesn't reduce a male persons longer stride, arm length, height, larger lung capacity. If a transwoman has been competing as and with males b4 trans then that male body does not 'unlearn'

As for women's spaces. How do we distinguish between Karen White and a 'good' transwoman in law? Fundamental question for me is do women have a right to refuse any male person access to view or touch their bodies?

This is not an easy debate but what is clear is that TRAs are over promising and sacrificing our young people to their ideology. I don't believe an ideology that would do this to our young is to be trusted :

I do not represent TRAs. I am against taking any rights away from women. Not all trans people are the same.

Which female only spaces, sports and organisations are you allowing us?

wrexham I have a question for you if you don’t mind? If your dr had said to you ‘no you can’t transition, just wear dresses and makeup and do what you want. You’re still a man’ how would you have felt?
My friend is a transman and said it wasn’t about stereotypes for him, more about being very uncomfortable in a female body and spending his life knowing that it wasn’t right. He didn’t change anything about himself when he transitioned to the outside eye, but said he felt like a cloud above his head had been lifted. I appreciate that your experience may be different and perhaps a difference entirely between transwoman and transmen as woman can be more masculine without predjudice compared to feminine men.

wrexham I have a question for you if you don’t mind? If your dr had said to you ‘no you can’t transition, just wear dresses and makeup and do what you want. You’re still a man’ how would you have felt?

In honesty I couldn't have lived as a man. That would have destroyed me.

Earlywaljer didn't mention living as a man though. Rather being told that you could wear what you like and do what you like but that you'd still be a man.

Sorry for typos

I think we need to separate gender dysphoria from body dysphoria. Someone could have either, or both. And to differing degrees.

I think this is an important distinction. I believe that most people are gender dysphoric to some extent as gender stereotypes are not helpful to anyone.

"Which female only spaces, sports and organisations are you allowing us?"

That's a very loaded question.

It is not for trans people to allow women access to women's spaces. It is for women to allow trans women into this spaces.

There is an event near me for women only that I would have liked to go to. I didn't. I recognise that it would make many uncomfortable. In the end though without asking I got invited. When some of the people involved in it had met me through other things they chose to accept me to attend. That was a privilege to be invited ... It certainly wasn't my right to force myself in.

The vast majority of those claiming access to women's only spaces should not be allowed. Unfortunately you can't police who is an acceptable transgender and who isn t.

Until the definition of transgender changes over who should have any rights then excluding trans women is absolutely acceptable. Until then I am happy that on an individual basis many women I met choose to accept me as gender female and allow me into that circle.

"It doesn't reduce a male persons longer stride, arm length, height, larger lung capacity"

Absolutely agreed but just a little fascinating fact.... female hormones do change height by up to an inch !! Shoe size can also change.

But female is a sex, not a gender. And women are adult human females.

The only requirements to live as a man are to be male, adult and alive.

Dresses and makeup have no bearing on it.
John McClean lives as a man and does a bloody good job of it.

I didn't misunderstand you did I?
You said you never take rights away from women?
So you will work with women to keep our spaces segregated with you and every biological male firmly on the other side of our boundaries?
No males in our sports, no males in our changing rooms, no males providing intimate same sex services, no males in our statistics, no males in our prisons and categorically no clauses in law that allow males to claim legally that they are females?

That's what 'not taking away women's rights means'.

It means accepting we are separate from you and respecting our right to maintain that distinction.

"It doesn't reduce a male persons longer stride, arm length, height, larger lung capacity
I find this an interesting argument to make. Considering we’re on the subject of stereotypes, what about woman that are bigger/taller? Do you not think attitudes like this that you can ‘spot the man’ may lead these woman to believe they are men if they otherwise wouldn’t have thought it?

wrexham my friend says the same, if he was told he had to remain a woman, it would’ve destroyed her. It nearly did

female is a sex, not a gender

I think it's both. Psychologically society identifies me as female even though physiologically it identifies me as male.

John McLean:

twitter.com/HOUSEOFMACLEAN/status/1063423459101954048?s=09