AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Great post. Placemarking :)

One of my big concerns is transing children. What do you think wrex?

I am a university lecturer and have many trans students. But equally many desist. I am very concerned that if 19yos and 21yos are desisting then a 13yo who is trans may very well decide later it's not for them - but blockers etc will have made it too late. Do you see why mums would be worried about that?

It’s abhorrent that you (or anyone) should face daily abuse, ridicule and violence. That’s the transphobia right there - not me quietly believing that transwomen are not women. Believing someone isn’t a woman doesn’t mean I respect them less. Or treat them badly. But the TRA gang have bundled the whole lot up into one ridiculous parcel which doesn’t help anyone!

This kindness has been destroyed by the new wave of entitled TRAs.

Transsexual people have been swallowed up by this new definition of transgenderism.

Many transsexual people are against it too....Ive had a lot of respect for who I am taken away by the fact a cross dresser wants the right to claim womanhood on a Friday night for sexual motivation.

OP I agree with much of what you say.

However, I’d just like to make a point re:

The best solution I can come up with, and it isn't ideal, is that to complete as a transwoman in womens sports you must have had testosterone and oestrogen levels to be that of a natal female for at least 6 months

That wouldn’t undo male phsyiology though. There would still be the height, bone density etc of a male.

The only fair way to deal with sports where physiology has an impact is to have a category for transwomen.

I hope you don't get anyone being disrespectful as your OP is where I and many other posters have said we are coming from - we gave an inch they stole a mile is precisely it!

All else, the stuff labelled "It never happens", is a scary and depressing corollary to the small but significant fact of appropriating what was once given freely!

Look how quickly we have gone from trying to stop TRAs etc ridiculing and shutting down any debate with "Oooooh, it's all about the loos" to them trying to convince us that as only a small % of trans women are sexual predators it is OK for any and all of them to be housed in women's prisons and any women getting hurt in the process is acceptable collateral damage!

I can't see how anyone, politician, female, trans male etc can NOT see why there MUST be an open and honest = blunt discussion about this. Safeguarding women and children simply MUST be upheld. Which means acknowledging the true statistics of violence and that trans women retain their male behaviour patterns.

Start with the simple truth and work out a set of social and legal rules that work for everyone!

Completely agree with what you say OP.
I think for a lot of women ( myself included) the issue is not with Trans people, I don’t care how people choose to present themselves to the world, but specifically with self ID.
I also object to the aggression shown in some quarters when women refuse to agree with certain views about what a Transwoman actually IS. I respect most people’s beliefs but I don’t have to agree or validate them.
I think another thing that I find ffensive isn’t that I have been a girl/woman for 46 years. I have experienced the positive and negative things that entails and then a man can dress in a stereotypically female way with swishy hair, fake boobs, tight dresses and too much make up and insist that they are a woman too. They are Transwomen, and I will defend their choice to live that way but as far as I am concerned a woman is an adult human female due to biology and there is no other definition
Ironically it is probably Feminists that could be the most effective Trans allies. Used to being judged on our looks and shouted at in the street for how we choose to dress. I personally would step in if a Transwomen was being verbally abused and perhaps other women would too but we are being alienated by small by very vocal minority.
I also think that in some sections of society the fight to be “the most woke of all”is damaging the cause of Transwomen, by picking a Transwomen for Women Wednesdays ( children in need) or women in Business (Philip/pip Bunce) these organisations are pissing off Women and specifically Feminists and causing a huge backlash against the majority of Transwomen who are NOT perverts and DONT want to be women so they can check whether 10 year old girls are wearing tampons or rape women in prisons. Sadly those people, along with the hysterical screeching of LM et al are becoming what people think of when they think of a Transwoman .

I agree, in the main, there was reasoned discussion on the other thread.

I don’t, however, feel as though anyone moved closer to a “solution”. I think people stated their views in a reasonably respectful fashion.

The issue for me is that the TRAs have run so far with this, sweeping up public figures and political parties in a maelstrom of liberal “inclusivity” - quite how they are so powerful is a whole other discussion- that I don’t know how we back peddle to a place where women don’t have to capitulate entirely.

I'm also really concerned about the age that children are receiving medical treatment and how this has become a real to me since ITV's butterfly and the Jackie Green story. I'd like to know your thoughts on that.

The Butterfly documentary was very well done and very accurate. I've been trans since I was a very young child so I certainly support the view that it is possible to know even from such a young age that one is trans. In that regard therefore I don't think medical treatment should be withheld simply for the fact the person is a minor.

That said we are talking about significant treatment here that we can't take lightly.

For my mind the best solution is this...

1. The child should live full time in their preferred gender for a period of time
2. No permanent medical intervention until age 16. Puberty blockers can be used to delay puberty but not drugs that cause changes.
3. Increased support from specialist gender counsellors
4. A more multi disciplinary approach involving those outside the family more closely involved eg schools

Morning Wrex

I agree with most of your points.
A few years ago I was one of the women you describe. Happily welcomming TW in to the "fold" as their presence had no negative effect on me. We all went about our business being respectful and not making demands of each other.

Then it started to change.
TW in womens sport was my "eh what now?" moment.
TW winning/gaining womens prizes and places.
Then it was the demands "call us women or else".
Then the emotional blackmail followed swiftly by acts of violence and intimidation.
The erasure of various words to describe female anatomy and experiences.
The shutting down of voices brave enough to publicly question the motives of this new TW are women mantra.
Finally it was the transing of children combined with the risks of self id.

I did not become GC because I woke up one day and decided I hate transpeople. I got to this point because of the actions of a very vocal and very influencial group of mostly males whos ideology is very damaging for women and children.

Self Id is damaging for females and transexuals. It dilutes your struggles and your identity, erasing the genuine fight you have had and continue to have to get support and exceptence. It poses major risks to the safety and protection of women and children.

Only point i disagree on is the born in the wrong body part. Its not medically possible and creates a physical untruth. However if thats how you choose to best describe how you feel then I wont challenge it. It is a personnel description of yourself and not my place to berate you or try to change your language.

Thank you for starting this thread.

I certainly support the view that it is possible to know even from such a young age that one is trans Sadly that is one area that the Mermaid message has managed to destroy much support for.

The natural reaction from anyone hearing and fully understanding the Mermaid version of your much more measured approach is to recoil in horror and refuse to countenance any of it!

So now minors with the same certainty of feeling you had are being used as a battlefield with confused parents on one side and a whole array of emotional blackmail on the other.

So much damage is being done. I wonder if we will ever uncover the real root of this? The who and the why of it all?

I thought you were being optimistic, but it's going well so far. It's nice to be wrong.

No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.

I disagree with this. I think the protection of the EA should apply from the start of transition, but simply that sex and gender should be delineated so that it's clear those protections don't override women's spaces.

"So the problem is with Stonewall, and the transgender activists. Are you talking to them? "

In the same way women are being shut out the debate so to are many transsexual women !!

Transsexual women who do not support the full TRA bullshit are called "truscum" - a derogatory term.

AGree also huge difference between people who hate their body so much they de-sex it and a lot of other types of trans. And agree if we can’t tell them apart, it’s bad news.

On the brain, It has been shown than trans brains have features similar to other trans brains not that transwomen have brain like women. I would imagine that features that develop in responses to training ( socialisation) may become alike over time. But implying a basic innate female brain is wrong and has been used to cage and dehumanise women over centuries. Women are intelligent enough to vote. We have enough financial acumen to handle a mortgage, we can do science. All these things were denied to us in the past because of our weak female brain.

I am also scared for young girls because a lot of women have gone through something similar to gender dysmorphia as part of growing up

sport is more complex than just hormone levels. Women are a lot smaller typically and no amount of hormones will shrink someone.

"That wouldn’t undo male physiology though. There would still be the height, bone density etc of a male."

That is indeed true but then there are of course a wide range of natal female heights and builds as well. I dont think there will ever be an easy solution to this.

I don’t, however, feel as though anyone moved closer to a “solution”. I think people stated their views in a reasonably respectful fashion.

The very act of having a reasonable discussion starts to solve some of the difficulty. It's unrealistic to expect a consensus in one MN thread- we can't even get that about parking spaces.

OP I agree with your first post.

I'm very sad at how this is turning out. And unbelievably frustrated at people who are normally open-minded and look at all angles in everything else putting blinkers on themselves and labelling me bigoted or transphobic for wanting a discussion (and I never dead name, misgender etc). The refusal of otherwise critical-thinking people to even enter a discussion is shocking. On top of that, they also refuse to accept they they don't know what they're talking about when they use the word "trans" - i.e. it's not asexual, slightly butch or feminine teens, or someone aged 60 who has been in agony their entire lives.

I also don't care if someone is a cross-dresser or autogenophile or anything else, I'm not into shaming. Everybody has quirks, fetishes are not uncommon. But, I absolutely object to this camouflage of the "trans umbrella", which basically means coopting and mutating the lives and painful struggles of transsexuals like you.

For me sport needs to be dealt with quickly. The only people who can compete as women should be natal women who are not taking any testosterone. Trans men and trans women would therefore be ineligible to compete as women. I have no problem with funding being made available for a third category to be established - I have no problem with trans people competing.

No permanent medical intervention until age 16. Puberty blockers can be used to delay puberty but not drugs that cause changes.

Except that the desistance rate for children on puberty blockers is close to zero. While 80% of children given therapy & watchful waiting become reconciled to their bodies during puberty & usually grow up lesbian or gay, the brains & bodies of kids on blockers stop developing & so they move on to cross-sex hormones. And then end up as young adults with pre-pubertal genitals by which point it's a bit late to realise they made the wrong decision as a child.

Wrexham can you clarify what you mean regarding child transition?

A child living in their preferred gender - what does that mean and how does it impact others around them?

Puberty blockers? We know these are hugely risky. How can you advocate children who are confused because of the messages being sent to them in society (and bloody taught in school) being given potentially harmful drugs which put them on a pathway to being a lifetime medical patient when the overwhelming majority become comfortable in themselves?

I also take exception to your op where you call yourself a woman. You ask for respectful debate but you don’t respect our words and our boundaries.

Is Transwomen are Women your starting position, with the debate being the definition of Transwomen?

also huge difference between people who hate their body so much they de-sex it and a lot of other types of trans

Absolutely spot on.

I detest my body with a passion. Pre hormones any male sensation would cause me to have a meltdown. I have come close to self mutilation many many times and in the past even attempted suicide because I felt I could never be who I was meant to be and couldn't carry on. I dream of an accident that would cause loss of genitals. Thankful chemical castration and hormones have made things manageable for now.

When someone comes along and says "I like wearing women's clothes sometimes because it turns me on so Im transgender just like you" its beyond offensive.

Op thank you for this thread.

I don’t hate transwomen at all. What I hate are the activists trying to eradicate who I am so they fit in. The Twitter activists who were arguing that it’s disgusting that they have been moved to the bottom of the list for breast implants as women with cancer needed the treatment more. Woman of the year being given to Caitlin Jenner. Competing in women’s sports where we would have no chance of winning against a male. That needs to stop. Women have fought long and hard to get to where they are and it’s being taken away from them. The activists are the ones turning people against trans.

My biggest fear is what’s happening to children. My hisband at the age of 35 has had to really beg his dr for a vasectomy. They told him he was too young. This is after 3 children. He is an adult with a career, job, wife, house, driving licence and so on. But he was told he was too young. Yet we are giving children hormone blockers and allowing them to make life changing decisions at 12 and 13. They aren’t old enough to vote but they can make a decision which will affect their whole lives. I truly believe we need to be looking in to this more. It worries me how it’s all going topan out.

don I agree reasoned debate is the first step - as I said, my worry is that many, many people are publicly entrenched in a position - Jeremy Corbyn, for eg, has stated tha TWAW - that I don’t know how we negotiate back.

OK, here goes [deep breath and big girl pants on]:

Why do the majority of trans women choose to retain a penis? Is it because surgery is risky and/or likely to lead to reduced sexual function?

Where do the trans community stand (not TRAs, I think we know where they stand) on Mermaids? And, in particular, on puberty blockers for children. I would have thought it would be better to support children psychologically through puberty and then make decisions about physical changes after that, to give those individuals the best chance of an enjoyable sex life as adults.

Is there a forum where the trans community can campaign against things like Self ID without being attacked? I truly believe the debate needs to happen because spaces for women and for transwomen need to be provided, but the rights of one group shouldn't trump the rights of the other. The TRA line 'trans women are women' just closes down this discussion and doesn't allow for all the nuances to be addressed.

Thank you, OP.

That is indeed true but then there are of course a wide range of natal female heights and builds as well.

But that range is different for men. Their skeleton is also different in significant ways. I'm afraid that for many sports I think transsexuals should not be able to compete at all levels.

Butterfly was essentially a Mermaids advert. It reinforced the inaccurate statistics they peddle about suicide attempt rates for trans-presenting children. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/fairplayforwomen.com/mermaids-tg-lying-unprofessional/amp/