AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Thanks for starting this wrexham I too am interested in a reasonable debate on this.

I think the biggest shame is that transsexuals like yourself and those I know, would previously have been able to live your life without being seen as a ‘threat’ as such. Now the TRA’s have jumped in with their ‘anyone can be trans’ and self ID and it’s sent a lot of woman into panic and defence mode. Whilst I understand the reasoning, I don’t agree with the way some people have pinpointed the enemy and ran with it so far that it’s now run into two extremes campaigning for either the full exclusion of all transpeople to be seen as a transwoman/man or on the other side, anyone who wants to be in a woman’s space can just say the magic words ‘I am a woman’ with no real questioning.

The current GRC rules as they stand, I think are sufficient for determining a trans man /woman and think once they have one, they should be treated as such except in situations where they may have a biological advantage over their counterpart such as sport.
I also believe that if you’ve been sentenced for violance or sexual assault you should not be put in the prison of your new gender.

I’d like to hear (without name calling) why a GRC isn’t good enough for some GC posters?

Hi OP, I don't completely agree with you, but I have much admired your calm voice in this discussion.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man.
I found this comment telling. In the other thread you mentioned a love of knitting, grooming, and various other things which made you think you feel like a woman (hope I got that right without looking up a direct quote?). Trouble is I, like many women, don't like any of those things. It just seems to me that if I accept that you OP are a woman, it would logically follow that I'm not.

You have talked about gender and sex existing as separate things. I think this is an absolutely key point. Do you recognise too that gender is an optional thing? Some people feel like they have a sense of gender identity which may or may not match to their sex. Other people consider gender to be a matter of stereotypes and want no truck with it. I recognise that some people have a gender identity, but get angry when they try to tell me I have one too and I'm lucky because it matches my sex. Nope. I would really welcome an outcome to the political discussions that makes the difference between gender and sex crystal clear.

@SwearyG, that's spiteful. You are going to derail this brilliant thread if you carry on being inflammatory.

Is Transwomen are Women your starting position, with the debate being the definition of Transwomen?

If only it were that simple!

Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Sex is biological. As much as it pains me to say it I am sex male. I could never say "trans woman are the same sex as women".

Gender is a social construct. Society has always perceived me as gender female because of how I am/behave/personality etc. In that regard therefore I would say "trans women are the same gender as women".

But the problem is which is the overriding defining factor ? Is it sex or gender ? Truthfully I don't think there will ever be agreement on that.

Both sides I feel go too far.
TRAs say "it's only about gender, sex is unimportant" .... sorry but no
The feminist side often say "it's only about sex, gender is unimportant"

You can never say TWAW unless we can solve what fundamentally makes a woman.....sex or gender.

I’d like to hear (without name calling) why a GRC isn’t good enough for some GC posters?

I think in the days when GRCs were rare & for a small number of transsexuals with severe dysphoria, it was easier to tolerate the legal fiction.

But now we're close to the stage where anyone can have one & trans-identifying males are demanding access to our spaces whether they have them or not. That's the difference for me.

I don’t know how we negotiate back.

I think we do what we are doing and move the world around them so far from their position the look like extreme loonies.

That's why the inclusion of transgender voices is really important, even where we completely disagree- because it neutralises their only argument: waaaaa transphobia.

Spiteful? To ask why the OP is calling themselves a woman when women have said many times that that word cannot include people who are born male? Get over yourself.

That is indeed true but then there are of course a wide range of natal female heights and builds as well. I dont think there will ever be an easy solution to this

I also take exception to this, OP. You know the easy solution, which is keeping women’s sports for women. Anyone born male can compete in men’s sports or set up a trans classification.

This “brilliant thread” is women falling over themselves to accommodate someone who is saying out loud, over and over, that they’re not willing to respect women’s boundaries whilst using nice language. Don’t fall for it.

But the problem is which is the overriding defining factor ? Is it sex or gender ? Truthfully I don't think there will ever be agreement on that.

The idea of gender being dominant is intrinsically homophobic though. That's what leads to 'Lesbians are female homosexuals' being viewed as controversial.

@SwearyG, that's spiteful. You are going to derail this brilliant thread if you carry on being inflammatory. That wasn't spiteful. Sweary simply asked questions that need to be asked, as I said, honest here will have to be blunt and many will recoil - that's our female socialisation.

We HAVE to have a conversation that includes the issues Sweary raises. And we have to be able to do it without paraphrasing our selves into a polite but meaningless muddle!

I also take exception to your op where you call yourself a woman. You ask for respectful debate but you don’t respect our words and our boundaries.

Please don't derail this thread. Nowhere did I call myself a woman in my OP because I knew it would be an issue. I stated that I was a trans woman and I further stated that "being a woman is who I am". That is very much not the same thing and of course you are free to say "but you can't be a woman".

Early
The current GRC rules as they stand, I think are sufficient for determining a trans man /woman and think once they have one, they should be treated as such except in situations where they may have a biological advantage over their counterpart such as sport.
I also believe that if you’ve been sentenced for violance or sexual assault you should not be put in the prison of your new gender.
That’s not how it works though - you can’t say GRC is fine except here and here and...should someone with a GRC who has been convicted of sexual offences subsequently have access to a female refuge? You could list so many exceptions thatit becomes meaningless...

I’d like to hear (without name calling) why a GRC isn’t good enough for some GC posters?

I found this patronising, with the no name calling thing, but I’ll try and respond.
Honestly? When GRCs were just used to a small number of transsexual people I didn’t even consider it as a thing. It was fine. Now? I’ve seem so much misogynistic and homophobic bullshit for TRAs that I have no trust that legislation will keep women safe. Besides, the current system is not what TRAs want. They want unfettered access to women - including the actual label “woman”.

But the problem is which is the overriding defining factor ? Is it sex or gender ? Truthfully I don't think there will ever be agreement on that.

There always has been agreement on this. It has always been sex, until recently when a group of activists created and exploited a loophole to undermine women’s sex based protections. If we stopped the bullying and nonsense and went back to sex then the world would continue to be safer for women and girls.

But the problem is which is the overriding defining factor ? Is it sex or gender ? Truthfully I don't think there will ever be agreement on that.

Why would we use gender? As you yourself point out it is a social construct.

We may as well segregate on hair colour!

Women are discriminated against because of our sex.

Personally I don’t ‘identify’ as having a gender. Why would i? It’s a restrictive cage and I don’t subscribe to the stereotypes.

Please don't derail this thread. Nowhere did I call myself a woman in my OP because I knew it would be an issue. I stated that I was a trans woman and I further stated that "being a woman is who I am". That is very much not the same thing and of course you are free to say "but you can't be a woman".

I’m not detailing the thread. I’m saying that when you say “being a woman is who I am” you are calling yourself a woman and no amount of semantics and bullshit will negate that. I’m saying that it’s a disrespectful point to start your “respectful” thread.

I’m out. The gaslighting in here is poisonous.

that's spiteful. You are going to derail this brilliant thread if you carry on being inflammatory.

Don't be silly. She's entitled to her opinion and her boundaries. It's not "spiteful".

Nowhere did I call myself a woman in my OP because I knew it would be an issue. I stated that I was a trans woman and I further stated that "being a woman is who I am". That is very much not the same thing.

I'm afraid you'll need to clarify for me, Wrexham. How is saying 'being a woman is who I am' not the same as calling yourself a woman? Does it imply that you're performing womanhood?

Both sides I feel go too far.
TRAs say "it's only about gender, sex is unimportant" .... sorry but no
The feminist side often say "it's only about sex, gender is unimportant"

I dont think gender is unimportant but when it comes down to legal rights and the law it has to be factual as the law is based on facts. Sex trumps gender.

With apologies for the previous bold fail!

This “brilliant thread” is women falling over themselves to accommodate someone who is saying out loud, over and over, that they’re not willing to respect women’s boundaries whilst using nice language. Don’t fall for it. That! And I acknowledge my own part in it.

We need to be able to talk to Wrex and any other trans person with total candour. To offend and affront and be offended and affronted whilst agreeing to remain in the discussion until it is done!

Sorry Wrex, but Sweary is right. We have to acknowledge that you are referring to yourself as a woman and using the sex vs gender confusion as a shield. If you could be more bluntly honest with yourself you know that there is no problem in identifying what a woman is, and it does not include any human being that was born male.

That is where the most sensitive of discussions needs to be had.

many women feel gender is shoved upon them, “ don’t do that it’s not ladylike” “and it does not match who they are “urgh, you do physics “ . I am stuck with being a woman because of my sex. No matter how many masculine characteristics I may have “don’t you shave your legs?”

Because of my sex I have faced discrimination. WIthout having hormones for life and a mastectomy I can never escape that. Major surgery should not be a prerequisite for living your life true to yourself

Because of your identity you have faced discrimination. Equally awful. But different. It wouldn’t t surprise me if you were more likely to be the victim of a gang beating, and i more likely to be the victim of rape.

So sex is clearly important to some women, and gender clearly important to some other people.

We need separate terms for each type of person because without separation terms we deny the existence of each other, our experiences. We make it impossible to track progress towards a discrimination free life.

Women and transwomen works for me

Sorry Wrex, but Sweary is right. We have to acknowledge that you are referring to yourself as a woman and using the sex vs gender confusion as a shield. If you could be more bluntly honest with yourself you know that there is no problem in identifying what a woman is, and it does not include any human being that was born male.

This.

I don't think gender is unimportant but when it comes down to legal rights and the law it has to be factual as the law is based on facts. Sex trumps gender.

There are 37 recognised genders in New York, 72 on Facebook & an infinite number on Tumblr. I and several other women I know would say we simply don't have one. Our sex is female.

No, No, you misunderstand. It's the way those views are being expressed that is inflammatory. Of course we need to debate all the issues. But RESPECTFULLY.

On the issue of sport, ‘anyone born Male should complete in Male sport’ would you be happy for a transman (born female) therfore to compete in woman’s sport? Given that his testosterone levels would be far higher than the average woman.

There are 37 recognised genders in New York, 72 on Facebook & an infinite number on Tumblr. I and several other women I know would say we simply don't have one. Our sex is female.

Agree.

There was a TRA on twitter arguing with someone that they identify as agender in that case

She absolutely owned them though. You don’t get to force your labels on people be it cis or agender or whatever.

"Why do the majority of trans women choose to retain a penis? Is it because surgery is risky and/or likely to lead to reduced sexual function? "

I don't I understand this myself.

However remember its a majority of transgender women who choose to retain a penis...transgender being a very broad definition including cross dressers,fetishists etc..

The majority of transsexual women do not want to retain a penis. By definition dysphoria brings about an intense hatred of the penis.

Some transsexual women do however choose to retain a penis after HRT and blockers simply because of the powerful effect of the medications. The penis shrinks considerably and typically impotence occurs. It is no longer capable of PIV and the person has no motivation to.