AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

There are 37 recognised genders in New York, 72 on Facebook & an infinite number on Tumblr.

Could you imagine creating and upholding laws/legal rights based on 72 genders!!
This is why sex trumps gender.

This “brilliant thread” is women falling over themselves to accommodate someone who is saying out loud, over and over, that they’re not willing to respect women’s boundaries whilst using nice language.

I agree with both of your points, but not this conclusion. I think it's important that these arguments are heard. How often do TRAs claim your arguments are offensive, then refuse to discuss?

If an argument is egregiously wrong then it's easy to refute.

On the issue of sport, ‘anyone born Male should complete in Male sport’ would you be happy for a transman (born female) therfore to compete in woman’s sport? Given that his testosterone levels would be far higher than the average woman.

If they have been using testosterone then they wouldn’t be able to compete as it is a banned substance I believe.

I’d like to hear (without name calling) why a GRC isn’t good enough for some GC posters?

Good enough for what?

Given that his testosterone levels would be far higher than the average woman.

Well, they'd have to reduce their testosterone levels to standard female ones to make it fair. And at that point they'd have no natural advantage over women. So no problem.

I think Wrex has been fairly open about the mental health implications of dysphoria- I suspect it is extremely difficult to reconcile a hatred of your body with a clearly expressed desire to not invade “woman” - particularly in a society that values gender stereotypes so much.

I’m not falling over myself to accommodate anyone, Sweary - I think it’s good to have the MH side of transition discussed rather than denied.

On the issue of sport, ‘anyone born Male should complete in Male sport’ would you be happy for a transman (born female) therfore to compete in woman’s sport? Given that his testosterone levels would be far higher than the average woman.

This is called doping and is already banned in sport so I dont see the point you are trying to make.

How is saying 'being a woman is who I am' not the same as calling yourself a woman

I don't want to see this tiny statement get blown up when it doesn't need to.

I will clarify it by saying that what I meant was "identifying with the gender definitions that society has deemed to be female is who I am"

That is indeed true but then there are of course a wide range of natal female heights and builds as well

None of which compare to a male physique and certainly different height and build doesn’t change bone density.

I dont think there will ever be an easy solution to this

There is though. It’s to say “actually not enough players at this time”. That has been said to me on occasion over the past 20 years. I don’t understand why it’s ok to say that to a woman but NOT ok to say that to a transwoman.

Transwomen playing certain sports puts natal women at risk. That’s before you even get into the morality of whether they’re gaining an unfair advantage.

Of course we need to debate all the issues. But RESPECTFULLY.

Women have repeatedly been told to be respectful, be kind, be accommodating, while the vast majority of TRAs seem to feel no such need.

It was kindness that led a lot of women to sign the Tara Hudson petition & later regret it.

"I’d like to hear (without name calling) why a GRC isn’t good enough for some GC posters?"

Personally I'm against GRC because it does not require hormonal or surgical intervention.

A post op transsexual may not have a GRC yet someone never having had treatment may have one.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another.

I would respectfully suggest that this argument is really harmful, and ask you to consider dumping it OP:

1. It's used to justify the TRA ideology. If sex is in the brain then what does having a penis matter?

But the OP isn't a TRA. She's a trans woman. That's like saying all Muslims are extremists.

Good enough for what? to determine who should be treated as there desired sex.

i don’t see the point your trying to make it was a question not a point. If transwoman should compete in Male sports as you say, that leads to transmen having to compete in female sports. Unless you’re saying that transmen should just not be allowed to do any sport? I think a trans olympics would be great. But I think that given testosterone levels are so varied in trans people and their natal sex, it should be considered as a factor as well as the fact that their levels can be hire than their desired sex.

Posted too soon.

1. It's used to oppress women. If someone doesn't 'act' like a woman are they actually trans?

1. It's factually wrong. The average brain differences between males and females are small compared to the huge variety in brains.

I will clarify it by saying that what I meant was "identifying with the gender definitions that society has deemed to be female is who I am"

So, if society hadn't deemed them 'female', then you would be happy being a man?

So for instance, in another country where knitting and grooming [mentioned earlier] were seen as manly, you would not have transitioned?

But the OP isn't a TRA. She's a trans woman. That's like saying all Muslims are extremists.

But thanks to Stonewall & their trans umbrella, transsexuals have been swept in with all other trans identities & if they do want to retain any kind of acceptance or trust from women, they really needed to speak out much sooner & much more loudly - preferably as soon as self-ID was proposed, or even back when there was the push to move Tara Hudson, to make it absolutely clear that they were against it.

It is good to have debate between women and transwomen - I think that is the only way we are going to clear this mess up.

One question for you @wrexhamtrans how can I explain my concerns with people without people throwing the "Bigot - trans hater" lable at me. I agree with most things you say, I have absolutely no problem with people quietly living their lives as their prefered gender when it is not removing others rights. But I have teenage daughters and I think they have a right to safe places where they won't come up against penises. I don't think that makes me a bigot, but the times I have talked about this in real life that is what I have been called.

if they do want to retain any kind of acceptance or trust from women, they really needed to speak out much sooner & much more loudly

We have done but and we do but transsexual people are a minority not represented collectively by any specific body. Those who speak out are labelled truscum and are rejected.

Personally I'm against GRC because it does not require hormonal or surgical intervention.
A post op transsexual may not have a GRC yet someone never having had treatment may have one.

I believe that's Debbie Hayton's argument too. But since there's no way anyone is ever going to check whether someone's had genital surgery, it would come down to accepting their word on it. So unenforceable.

Early transmen can compete in female sport however their testosterone levels would need to be the legal level. If not then they cannot compete as that is "doping".

If you cannot compete on a level and fair playing field then you should not compete in proffessional sports.

Trans sport/olympics should be pushed.

One question for you @wrexhamtrans how can I explain my concerns with people without people throwing the "Bigot - trans hater" lable at me. I agree with most things you say, I have absolutely no problem with people quietly living their lives as their prefered gender when it is not removing others rights. But I have teenage daughters and I think they have a right to safe places where they won't come up against penises. I don't think that makes me a bigot, but the times I have talked about this in real life that is what I have been called.

I dont think it makes you a bigot either! Unfortunately I can't think of any solution. I do believe there is a solution to be found but it can only be found through mutual compromise and understanding. Right now no one is winning or is going to.

Transsexual people are a minority not represented collectively by any specific body. Those who speak out are labelled truscum and are rejected.

Yes, I've seen the shit Miranda Yardley's been getting for his speaking up.

Women didn't have a specific body either, we created some. And then despite the abuse we received, we got on & made a racket. I spent a large chunk of September out leafleting for FPFW.

Women's Place UK welcome trans involvement.

This “brilliant thread” is women falling over themselves to accommodate someone who is saying out loud, over and over, that they’re not willing to respect women’s boundaries whilst using nice language

Quite how I am not willing to respect women's boundaries I really don't get. I have never said that and it's certainly not the case.

Good enough for what?to determine who should be treated as there desired sex.

GRCs make no difference to me to be honest because they don't require any medical intervention but it depends what is meant by 'treated as their desired sex'.

If that means competing in sport of their desired sex, winning awards designed for someone of their desired sex, taking roles/jobs designed for their desired sex, accessing prisons, hospital wards, refuges of their desired sex then no.