AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

I answered that ages ago

Thought you had

I have never said it. I don't "have a problem" with all MTF trans people. I just don't want them in female single sex spaces. Because male.

I have never said it.

If you say so.

Ereshkigal

My view is that a robust system that results in a GRC should be developed. Once a proposal is put forward then, as part of the consultation process, all interested parties should examine the proposal and how it may or may not affect them.

The atrocities being inflicted now on young children are shocking.

Just to be given time, without pressure to express and work through adolescence.

Shriek There's a couple of important articles in today's Mail on Sunday:
A teacher who has whistleblown due to serious Safeguarding issues with regards vulnerable pupils:
"Over the next four years, the 17 pupils who have ‘come out’ as transgender have become powerful within the school, Carol says.

They wear identical clothing and hairstyles and often adopt the names of transgender YouTube stars. She has also witnessed first-hand how older pupils have persuaded younger ones with autism that they, too, were born the wrong sex – a process she has likens to ‘grooming’.

‘They are just young people with mental health problems who have found an identity and want to be part of a group of like-minded people,’ she said.

I’ve seen girls who’ve changed gender groom younger ones to do the same... and in nearly every case they are autistic, says school teacher

Over an unblemished teaching career spanning two decades, Carol has devoted much of her time to the emotional and personal well-being of the pupils in her care" (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6401593/Whistleblower-teacher-makes-shocking-claim-autistic.html

'In 20 years we'll look back on the rush to change our children's sex as one of the darkest chapters in medicine, says psychotherapist BOB WITHERS'
(extract)
For everyone’s sake, I believe that surgery – which is irreversible – should only ever be a last resort. We should always begin by working to help the mind fit better with the body before we start altering the body to fit the mind.

Yet in today’s NHS, professionals are enabling hundreds – possibly thousands – of teenagers to have major surgery to change their gender.

It is being done, almost unchallenged, in the name of transgender rights. But in 20 years’ time, I believe we will look back on this folly as one of the darkest periods in the history of modern medicine.

We will question why we failed to challenge their belief that they were born in the ‘wrong’ bodies.

We will ask why we so readily ignored the clanging alarm bells that many were autistic, or had mental health problems.

What we are faced with today is extremely worrying. While 17 children are transitioning in one secondary school, be in no doubt – it is almost certainly being repeated in other schools. What is happening is this: we are bringing up a generation of children who have quite complex mental health issues." (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6402003/Well-look-rush-change-childrens-sex-one-darkest-chapters-medicine.html

& Sunday Times, 'Thank God they didn’t make this tomboy trans
The psychotherapist Stella O’Malley was sure she had been born the wrong sex — until she hit 16. She argues we must give children time to decide'
concludes:
The point that O’Malley wants to make is not that medicine is wrong, but that we need to be sure we aren’t causing unnecessary damage: “I wouldn’t be so arrogant as to say this approach is wrong or that approach is wrong. But I wonder aloud: are we exploring it all?”

Trans Kids: It’s Time to Talk will be on Channel 4 at 10pm on Wednesday"
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fcf96480-e9e6-11e8-a32a-6c510fb4641a

This is still going 😱 the round and round and round and round. Yes I get that people are angry, I am angry. Self ID IS A NO, BUT FFS PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST, THE RIGHT TO LIBERTY IS A HUMAN RIGHT, BUT AS RIGHTLY OUR LAW STANDS NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE LIBERTY OF OTHERS. All people have rights, to drag up the perverse fuckwits, and no it doesn't help that Stonewall have sold out bloody everyone bar the nutters. But seriously listen to yourselves. and yes I'm a TERF and a what do you call it a panderer - no I'm just fucking Human. I believe that we all have rights, and that to denigrate others is anti feminist.

No that doesn't mean that we give in or roll over to the patriarchy and the stereotyping going on. We don't give in to self ID, we don't allow men to arbitrarily become women because they want that board place, because they feel entitled to it. But by completely dissing the rights of those who take the arduous and painful transition to become women - we are falling into the patriarchy, the anti feminist stance of saying that they are no worth protecting. Feminist means equal, ranting on only alienates other feminists. I was raised as feminist and I will always be one, and yes I believe that people who transition properly should be accorded respect amongst us - and I fucking hate the Raging misogynistic betrayal that Stonewall & the like expect us to accept / I DO NOT ACCEPT. And I am not womaning wrong. I am a woman and I will not apologise for that, nor will I conform to whatever little box the extremists on both sides want me to be in. End rant 😀

We will question why we failed to challenge their belief that they were born in the ‘wrong’ bodies

ACTUAL BIOLOGICAL women are telling you that they have had a sense of self from when they were born, before they knew what it was, or anyone told them, but it was there?
They're being dismissed. Why profess to know all the answers? People clearly don't know them all yet.
Maybe for some it is this We will ask why we so readily ignored the clanging alarm bells that many were autistic, or had mental health problems but it clearly isn't for all when biological women have a sense of female self nothing to do with personality as well.

I'm not womanning wrong either, so damn fucking rude to belittle and tell women their experience is wrong, and they're only their biology.
I am not. There's clearly more and until we get an answer as to what that more is it's wheeeeeee round and round again lol

well said unicorns all women SHOCK HORROR are different! Fancy that.

ACTUAL BIOLOGICAL women are telling you that they have had a sense of self from when they were born

Point of order humans don’t develop a sense of self until around 18 months. And haven’t developed a categorical sense of self until around 3.

Verbeena This is a complete & unapologetic tangent but I've just realised where I know your name from.

I used to love that programme. When I was a teenager I'd babysit for my next door neighbour once a week, & always record it & take it along to watch while eating cake

Been busy today so I'm going to really annoy everyone by harking back pages to the discussion about feeling female.

Verbeena said:
You know you are, you feel you are, you just know. You're female, and embrace its changes even through puberty and you know you're female.

Ok, so what you are describing as feeling female is basically being female biologically and feeling okay about that? You know your sense of self is correctly described by the word "woman" not "man" or "cat" or "space alien" because female biology feels right? Clearly whatever a transwoman feels it's not that. Does a feeling of having male biology and feeling wrong about it in some way feel the same as the feeling of having female biology and feeling right about it? We can't tell but it seems unlikely to me, that's a vastly different experience of the world.

I'm talking about how we connect vocabulary to meaning. A sense of self isn't a word in the English language, it's a feeling. Something external needs to inform me in order for me to link that feeling with a word. If say I feel like a cat, what meaning does that have? How can I or you tell if I've attached the correct word to the feelings I have? I can't see inside a cat's head to see what feeling like a cat feels like to find out, you can't see inside my head to see if actually my sense of self is just like yours. You can only look at me and say actually you're human so no, that's not a cat feeling, it's a human who likes cats feeling.

The thing that annoys me the most about this is that it’s dressed up as feminism. If you don’t accept trans people, that’s your prerogative but that is not feminism.

Pretending your interests are with the woman who may get abused in prison? How much have you cared for the last 100 years when they’ve been being abused by the prison guards daily? You care about the toilets but before this debate did you ever really notice who was in the cubicle next to you? Pretending it’s about rape centres but forgetting That for a transwoman to be there she’d Have been raped too.

The woman who risked their lives to give us the vote are feminists, a lot of you are just bigots tarnishing the feminist name and using the ‘we care about woman’ line to get away with making inexcusable comments about a minority that you would not usually get away with.

I used to love that programme. When I was a teenager I'd babysit for my next door neighbour once a week, & always record it & take it along to watch while eating cake

Brilliant show, still one of my favourites! They need to bring it back!

Pretending your interests are with the woman who may get abused in prison? How much have you cared for the last 100 years when they’ve been being abused by the prison guards daily? You care about the toilets but before this debate did you ever really notice who was in the cubicle next to you? Pretending it’s about rape centres but forgetting That for a transwoman to be there she’d Have been raped too

How rude.

I'm not womanning wrong either, so damn fucking rude to belittle and tell women their experience is wrong, and they're only their biology.

Nobody is only their biology.

There are biological states; male, female, young, old, short-sighted, average-sighted etc, they don’t have to define your whole life, only when it matters.

Brilliant show, still one of my favourites! They need to bring it back!

Yes! It's not as if Sam ever got home - there must be plenty of untold stories .

The woman who risked their lives to give us the vote are feminists, a lot of you are just bigots tarnishing the feminist name and using the ‘we care about woman’ line to get away with making inexcusable comments about a minority that you would not usually get away with.

Care about women but only a select few women who think right.

Still outraged at that ending, it sucked lol.

*Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.

Just in case people have forgotten.*

Not the oppression of those that don’t fit in with your idea of a woman though. Incase you’ve forgotten.

Telling women their experiences are invalid, not a thing, and telling them what to do and what to think - not OK.

Rowantrees thank you for that post and particularly for that link, I don't know if you saw the post I made on a thread where I was encouraged to take it to my MP, for reasons, I could not, but you link has given me a way to directly share that and it have use. Thank you

Not the oppression of those that don’t fit in with your idea of a woman though. Incase you’ve forgotten.

Absolutely!

Pretending your interests are with the woman who may get abused in prison? How much have you cared for the last 100 years when they’ve been being abused by the prison guards daily? You care about the toilets but before this debate did you ever really notice who was in the cubicle next to you? Pretending it’s about rape centres but forgetting That for a transwoman to be there she’d Have been raped too.

You know nothing about what women who have raised some of these concerns may have been / are involved with either personally or professionally.

Here's Anne Ruzylo who worked in the female prison estate discussing her concerns and the work she did as Woman's Officer in the Labour party before being targetted by Lily Madigan & other TRA friends:

& here from 28:00 also with Jean Hatchet who raises awareness of murdered women by riding in their memory and funds for a DV charity 14:00: